Delayed winter treatment ?

[Thymallus]

My concern about vaping is how effectively does the vapor penetrate into a tight cluster of bees over the short period of treatment

There may be a clue in the amount of noise they make?

Wouldn't know as a vape virgin Although I do hear tell of those who have only ever done it twice and and are now forum experts on the subject.....
But, seriously, if I understand this right Jenkins reckons lifting the crown-board disturbs the cluster. You seem to be saying vaping disturbs the cluster as well. Guess it don't do 'em any harm to be disturbed either way, although I don't see any noticeable disturbance to the cluster when dribbling.

 

[Hawklord]

Which is worse damage to the brood and whole colony from varroa or possible damage to brood through vaping? Also regarding the vapor not penetrating the cluster, I would have though there was more chance of vapors getting through than the trickle.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Doctors Differ Patients Die.

Some say does matter re Brood , maybe I am incorrect but cannot imagine how a caustic vapour does not damage the brood.

I don't know, but have read the contrary view by a respected full time Beek to say does kill Brood.

I agree that OA is corrosive and might be expected to damage larvae. But having used vapourisers since they first became available (Varrox £60.00!) or more accurately since I first became aware of them, I have not detected any such damage.
It may be that the damage, if any is done, is not readily discernible, eg the adult bee has a shorter life, I don't know. The author of the article is well informed and may well be aware of problems somewhere.

 

[Hivemaker.]

My concern about vaping is how effectively does the vapor penetrate into a tight cluster of bees over the short period of treatment?

Best to treat when they are not tightly clustered, 5c or above is good, maybe a bit lower in a poly hive, the warmth from the vapor also helps to break up the cluster, especially from the pressurized vaporizers.

 

[Finman]

.
When you disturbe the hive, it takes 30 seconds that cluster is expanded and temp of cluster may rise up to 42C.

Cluster expands and bees try to clean themselves and get ridd of syrup. They rub themselves and spread the syrup all over the body..
When you trickle, open the hive again after 5 minutes and look what bees are doing there.

You will see tiny syrup droplets on bees wing next day and perhaps syrup droplets on frames. It means that bees do not lick the syrup.


You may open the cover of hive without trickling, and you see that the cluster wake up and start to defence the hive. After 30 seconds their muscle temp is propably 35C and they are willing to attack on you.

 

[Finman]

Best to treat when they are not tightly clustered, 5c or above is good, maybe a bit lower in a poly hive, .

5C is good, because bees are not able attack on you when you open the hive.

It is difficult to put cover back, if the colony is big and it swells out from the hive.
A good wind push them down soon. In bad cases you must use smoke.

I do not know what mad colonies do. I have not had such for a long time.

So, better to do job under 30 seconds.

When I last trickled the hives in September, temp was 15. Hives were calm and not in cluster. Why I did it? Reason was that temp was too low to use formic acid and brood were almost off
.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Which is worse damage to the brood and whole colony from varroa or possible damage to brood through vaping?

There is no damage to the brood, it does not take Einstein to think about it, why are three or even four treatments needed a few days apart when brood is present, you only need to know the life cycle of the varroa mite and the honey bee, the mites spend a certain time in a phoretic stage, then where do they head for?... now if the brood is dead, how can they enter cells of open brood, and apart from the sealed brood, why would three or more treatments be needed if the open brood was dead.

 

[Finman]

Oxalic does not make gas like thymol or formic adic, but it makes small acid needles into the hive. Actually fine dust. It does not disappear at once from hive like gas,.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Oxalic does not make gas like thymol or formic adic, but it makes small acid needles into the hive. Actually fine dust. It does not disappear at once from hive like gas,.

 

[Thymallus]

Best to treat when they are not tightly clustered, 5c or above is good, maybe a bit lower in a poly hive, the warmth from the vapor also helps to break up the cluster, especially from the pressurized vaporizers.

So vaping might not be as effective if used in very cold weather. Although I suspect from practical levels of efficiency we may be splitting atoms here.

 

[Thymallus]

.
You will see tiny syrup droplets on bees wing next day and perhaps syrup droplets on frames. It means that bees do not lick the syrup.


You may open the cover of hive without trickling, and you see that the cluster wake up and start to defence the hive. After 30 seconds their muscle temp is propably 35C and they are willing to attack on you.

Interesting, I've never been back to look the next day....must try. With my clear poly "crown-boards" should be easier to observe.
Did have a bad colony a few years ago which attacked me, possibly due to butterfingers dropping the syringe and taking too long to dribble. I've not timed myself but it is very quick, probably less than 30 seconds per hive. Longest bit can be checking which seams the bees are clustered in.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But, seriously, if I understand this right Jenkins reckons lifting the crown-board disturbs the cluster. .

Not seen the cluster appear disturbed when I've lifted the crown board and dribbled

As you want to bang on about this, maybe I didn't express myself properly - people seem to go on about OA trickling being bad because you have to open the hive, leave cold air in and pur nassssty cold syrup over them, what I meant to express is the fact that with vaping you don't have to disturb the hive at all by cracking open and chucking syrup in, then people's concern at disrupting the cluster should be allayed yes, the bees are going to be roused but without being exposed to the elements

My concern about vaping is how effectively does the vapor penetrate into a tight cluster of bees over the short period of treatment

I think Finny's hit the nail on the head there - it's not the actual gaseous phase that's the important one - it's afterwards when the gas turns back into tiny crystals without going through the liquid phase (sublimation), the crystals then descend on the bees and get distributed amongst them as they move (remember that even the tightest cluster is constantly moving with bees going from the middle to the extremities)

Oxalic does not make gas like thymol or formic adic, but it makes small acid needles into the hive. Actually fine dust. It does not disappear at once from hive like gas,.

So vaping might not be as effective if used in very cold weather. Although I suspect from practical levels of efficiency we may be splitting atoms here.

I'm no expert in the subject being fairly new to the process, but I took a long time to look at the method before deciding to use it, in my opinion, due to the way that the sublimated crystals work on the bees then as I said previously, it shouldn't make a big amount of difference how tightly clustered they are.

 

[Thymallus]

As you want to bang on about this, maybe I didn't express myself properly -

I don't want to bang on about it, so no need to get your knickers in a twist. I want to understand what is happening. If someone posts an observation that is contrary to ones own experience it's fairly natural to ask about it (although no doubt you see it as thymallus picking another fight....Pavlovian training me thinks ).
Thank you for a much fuller explanation. There's hope for you yet.

 

[Finman]

.
After treatment bees are not tightly clustered. You may see it with own eyes.
Cluster activates itself to defend itself

Then, Sugar acts like glue and makes bees dirty. Bees rub the syrup onto themselves. You may see it next day when you stir the bees.

If you cannot trust your own eyes, go to doctor. Beekeeping is not do difgicult like thus forum explains.

Oxalic has been used 15 years, and there is nothing odd in it. And always this "discussion", same guys, and no help. Every second month. I know each each others' answers in asleep, what each member says.

Could Hivemaker fix these discussions.


.

 

[Finman]

. If someone posts an observation that is contrary to ones own experience it's fairly natural to ask about it .

If someone makes an observation, which is against his own opinion, forget it

 

[oliver90owner]

But, seriously, if I understand this right Jenkins reckons lifting the crown-board disturbs the cluster

More serious is the total misunderstanding of the clear written word. Clearly you do not understand or you are purposely misrepresenting what the poster really wrote.

Missing out the small word 'and' could well demonstrate the level to which this poster descends,
in order to attempt to manipulate, or twist, a clear posting by another forum member.

 

[Thymallus]

But, seriously, if I understand this right Jenkins reckons lifting the crown-board disturbs the cluster

More serious is the total misunderstanding of the clear written word. Clearly you do not understand or you are purposely misrepresenting what the poster really wrote.

Missing out the small word 'and' could well demonstrate the level to which this poster descends,
in order to attempt to manipulate, or twist, a clear posting by another forum member.

Jenkins implied that he lifted the crown board AND disturbed the cluster. I replied that I had "Not seen the cluster appear disturbed when I've lifted the crown board and dribbled." I was being polite, as it was pretty obvious what he meant and to most people reading it....but obviously not to you.
Are you being deliberately obtuse in trying to pick a verbal spat with me? Is this the level you have now descended to?
Shame really, I thought you used to provide some useful postings.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You seem to be saying vaping disturbs the cluster as well.

I can't speak for anybody else but whenever I have vaped the hives there is a "muted roar", if you like; the sound of all the bees fanning their wings. This has subsided by the time the Varrox comes out. Disturbing, yes but only to a degree. I leave the boxes closed up for six minutes and after that time the odd bee pokes its head out to see what's going on but I have never seen a mass choking exodus.

 

[Finman]

.
I wonder, do this gang has hives at all.
.
You do not want to disturb hives. Sounds like do nothing beekeeping.

And that stupid innovation that you look from internet camera the entrance traffic. God! Give mercy.

 

[BrianO]

Does make for good reading on a Friday night after a good Tescos Finest Pizza and an Erdinger !

When Beekeepers go to War !!!

( NB. Hivemaker no Fortnum and Masons Pizza here, couldn't get there as my Landrover Sport ran outa Gas !!! )