Queen Breeding Pedigree

[wightbees]

Problem as I see it is, people are trying but not as a whole one voice group. You have different ideas floating about so it's not heading in one direction. There some good breeders but not working as a team I believe.

 

[madasafish]

Indeed. I am a bit obsessive about this. I just feel that if everyone did something we wouldn't be in the mess we are with our bees now.
Look at what has been achieved in Germany when beekeepers work together. Other countries are starting to emulate what the Germans have done and are seeing the benefits of cooperation. Why can't we do it too?
I realise that this will not appeal to everyone, but, I hope others will pick up the baton and do whatever they can.

German results are obtained by the force of law. Imagine the chances of getting the Welsh,English and Scottish beekeeping associations to agree on breeding one kind of bee and getting it through three Parliaments.. (I assume the Irish Sea acts as a suitable barrier.) And banning all bee imports..

BIBBA have had 50 years and achieved nothing. The BBKA disapprove of bee imports and are ineffectual..

It's a monument to incompetence.

 

[Finman]

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If we look British beekeeping, 0ver 90% of beekeepers are 2 hive owners. You really need a law to squeeze these hobbyist to follow some pedigree program.

And all those oxalic acid games with vets.............



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[Beefriendly]

BIBBA have had 50 years and achieved nothing. The BBKA disapprove of bee imports and are ineffectual..
It's a monument to incompetence.

I always grin at the imports spread disease brigade....if we hadn't exported European bees into Asia then Varroa destructor couldn't have jumped species from Apis cerano. Beekeeping would be a lot simpler.

 

[wightbees]

What happened to your link Finny lol

 

[Fusion_power]

When Fusion has described his bees, I think that his apiary is a herd of Russian bees. It stays alive by swarming.

Come visit sometime. See what mite resistant bees can do. While I have described them having a strong swarming tendency, it is because I have to do too much work to control swarming. That does not mean I let them swarm when I can prevent it. The best I can tell, my bees have about 25% lineage derived from Russian bees. The rest is a combination of A.M. Mellifera, Ligustica, and possibly a residual bit from Buckfast queens I had 15 years ago.

What I have realized from these discussions, real bee breeding is serious and hard systematic work. Open breeding simply destroys the achieved results.

Of all the discussion in this thread, this is the most perceptive comment so far. I'm fairly sure finman also understood the concern with sex alleles and why the honeybee is a special case compared with other animal based pedigree breeding programs.

Hoppy, thanks, I didn't notice the spelling of Litorea last night and typoed it with double T. I'll make a note that bold red extra large letter LITTOREA is actually a mollusk. Perhaps you would be interested in saying what mollusks have to do with beekeeping? Would you prefer to spell it mollusc? or is the alternative spelling "mollusk" acceptable?

 

[Finman]

I'm fairly sure finman also understood the concern with sex alleles ?

yeah, sure

 

[Finman]

Perhaps you would be interested in saying what mollusks have to do with beekeeping? ?

what mollusks have to do with beekeeping?

 

[B+.]

Evaluating a group of sister queens determines the breeding value of the mother of those queens.

For the sake of clarity: this is wrong
The performance test on the 1a queen(s) determines the breeding values. The mother of the queen(s) is 2a in the pedigree.
The reason that groups of sisters are evaluated on the same site is to provide confidence that the examiner is evaluating the stock consistently. Each queen is an informant on every other queen of her lineage (i.e. all of her sisters) in the database

 

[Fusion_power]

we wouldn't be in the mess we are with our bees now.

Massive bee deaths reported in the U.S. yearly are based on questionable statistics. As one commercial beekeeper recently put it, he gets a survey mid-winter asking how many colonies he lost for the year. He has not opened his colonies in 2 months and is not about to open them to see how many are still alive. If he ignores the survey, someone calls and bugs him to report his results. So like any intelligent beekeeper, he pull a number out of his fundament and returns the survey where it is conglomerated with hundreds of surveys to arrive at "massive bee deaths again in the U.S."

I'm of the opinion we could be in a much less difficult position with our bees if more beekeepers took Ron Hoskins approach of deliberately selecting among the bees they have for the traits they want. If major improvements are desired, then it is time to do some serious bee breeding involving pedigrees, allele testing, and genetic diversity.

For the sake of clarity: this is wrong

How would you back up this statement? Are there references?

 

[Beefriendly]

if more beekeepers took Ron Hoskins approach of deliberately selecting among the bees they have for the traits they want. If major improvements are desired, then it is time to do some serious bee breeding involving pedigrees, allele testing, and genetic diversity.

Easy to say but very difficult to put into practice, particularly in the UK. The vast majority of UK keepers, myself included, have no control over the drone lineage. Every mating is like tossing a coin, you have no control over who mates with your virgin queens and hence no real control of the genes you would like to influence.
I'm not sure what your mating set up is like but do you have an isolated mating station where you can put both necessary parts of the equation together?
From my visits to the states it's so vast that isolated mating areas should be easier to locate than in the densely populated UK.

 

[B+.]

How would you back up this statement? Are there references?

I use the system. I know how it works. If you need a reference, read "Selektion bei der Honigbiene" by Freidrich-Karl Tiesler, Kaspar Bienefeld and Ralph Buchler .... or you could just refer to Coloss (http://coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing/4/1/3)
What you said makes no sense. How would you know which queen to inseminate if you had to test her daughters first?
The truth is that the breeding values are the result of the performance test carried out during the first full year of the 1a queens life (i.e. assessment begins when she has established her own colony and is prepared for winter - see https://youtu.be/Wm7RqXJD4_w?t=7m40s ).

 

[B+.]

German results are obtained by the force of law. Imagine the chances of getting the Welsh,English and Scottish beekeeping associations to agree on breeding one kind of bee and getting it through three Parliaments.. (I assume the Irish Sea acts as a suitable barrier.) And banning all bee imports..

BIBBA have had 50 years and achieved nothing. The BBKA disapprove of bee imports and are ineffectual..

It's a monument to incompetence.

Sadly, I think you are right. There seems to be something in the Anglo-American psyche that precludes us from cooperating with other nations. Its as though we're stuck on the "if it's not invented here, I don't want it" track.
Well, we can keep on doing that and watch the rest of the world overtake us, or, we can learn to work together. That's what I'm doing. I hope others will join me

 

[For want of a better word]

Come visit sometime. See what mite resistant bees can do. While I have described them having a strong swarming tendency, it is because I have to do too much work to control swarming. That does not mean I let them swarm when I can prevent it. The best I can tell, my bees have about 25% lineage derived from Russian bees. The rest is a combination of A.M. Mellifera, Ligustica, and possibly a residual bit from Buckfast queens I had 15 years ago.

Of all the discussion in this thread, this is the most perceptive comment so far. I'm fairly sure finman also understood the concern with sex alleles and why the honeybee is a special case compared with other animal based pedigree breeding programs.

Hoppy, thanks, I didn't notice the spelling of Litorea last night and typoed it with double T. I'll make a note that bold red extra large letter LITTOREA is actually a mollusk. Perhaps you would be interested in saying what mollusks have to do with beekeeping? Would you prefer to spell it mollusc? or is the alternative spelling "mollusk" acceptable?

And you have Spelling Bee Competitions in your country....

Nos da

 

[Fusion_power]

do you have an isolated mating station where you can put both necessary parts of the equation together?

Within reasonable limits, yes, I have an isolated mating area. The nearest beekeeper is @4 miles away and the feral colonies in the area are all derived from my bees. Most of the queens I raise are highly mite resistant which is pretty good considering the genetics involved. I have not had any losses to mites in 5 years now. I have culled a few queens that had obvious but very low numbers of mites. This doesn't prove much which is why I sent 8 queens to California last year so a couple of beekeepers can see if they hold up in beemageddon.

B+, There is a disparity between the statement that you know how it works and the apparent lack of appreciation of the weaknesses of pedigree based systems.

Evaluating the performance of a group of sibling queens proves the breeding value of their mother. It is just progeny testing which was used by Brother Adam to evaluate queens. As you said, it also sheds light on the value of the sibling queens. Entire families can be selected for or eliminated from breeding based on progeny testing.

Here is a question worth exploring. How - in a pedigree based breeding system - can one determine and rank combining ability of a line(s)?

And you have Spelling Bee Competitions in your country....

Well, I can't exactly say. I definitely have bees. Whether they are any good at spelling, I've yet to see. I think Tori Spelling is pretty good at spelling.

 

[Beefriendly]

Within reasonable limits, yes, I have an isolated mating area. The nearest beekeeper is @4 miles away and the feral colonies in the area are all derived from my bees.

In other words yours are mating with Tom Dick and Harry. That isn't meant disparagingly just matter of factly.
The success of a proper breeding program relies on control over the drones and queens. What about II? Enable you to accurately control who "mates" with your chosen virgins. Should speed up your breeding program no end.

 

[B+.]

B+, There is a disparity between the statement that you know how it works and the apparent lack of appreciation of the weaknesses of pedigree based systems.

Even faced with the evidence you can't admit you're wrong. You made my ignore list

 

[wightbees]

Or moon light mating, did anyone ever try this?

 

[Fusion_power]

In other words yours are mating with Tom Dick and Harry.

Some truth to this, but I move colonies in and out of the area I use for mating to get the drone colonies I want . If you stipulate that Tom Dick and Harry were worthy drones produced by Queens Genevieve, Elspeth, and Helen, you might be onto it. If Fred sneaks in from a feral colony, and his mother happens to also carry mite resistance, then I did not lose any ground.

 

[Finman]

Or moon light mating, did anyone ever try this?

When I was young, I use to put all lights off

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