Amc in the UK - The evidence

[Erichalfbee]

Another thread draws to closure?

Not yet it doesn’t

 

[SDM]

B4 Conference mid February.
May have misheard as the hearing loop was not functional!
But which papers are YOU referring to?

Chons da

Definitely after that. I can hardly name papers that haven't been published yet, I'm not even sure the studies have been completed yet. The jist of it was that examples of various subspecies were being compared against natives in managed hives to see which was actually a better beekeepers bee. Working with German Buckfast breeders amongst others. It'll make interesting reading when it's finished.
Apparently they're also finally getting round to comparing current UK Amm to the historical samples Anita Malhotra has and will apparently be able to tell how long the current samples have been isolated from Europe.

 

[Swarm]

All these chased from the apiary stories make me laugh.

 

[B+.]

All these chased from the apiary stories make me laugh.

You're amused by other peoples troubles? Wow! What a thing to say on a bee forum!
Don't you realise that, by saying things like that, you're turning people who might have that problem off. Who's going to ask for help if they think you're laughing at them?

 

[mbc]

You're amused by other peoples troubles? Wow! What a thing to say on a bee forum!
Don't you realise that, by saying things like that, you're turning people who might have that problem off. Who's going to ask for help if they think you're laughing at them?

To be fair to swarm he's laughing at you telling the stories rather than some unfortunate beekeeper suffering the consequences of people like you mixing up the gene pool so their open mated queens have little chance of stability.
I know it doesn't fit your narrative that you're the bad guy but that's how some others see you with your selfish imported queens initiative.

 

[For want of a better word]

Some people tell stories. Others back up what they say with facts

At last...

Something we agree on!

Some of the best works of fiction I have read are on this forum... with particular reference to all these marvelous exotic honeybee imports and their calmness and monster honey production!!!



Chons da

 

[For want of a better word]

Definitely after that. I can hardly name papers that haven't been published yet, I'm not even sure the studies have been completed yet. The jist of it was that examples of various subspecies were being compared against natives in managed hives to see which was actually a better beekeepers bee. Working with German Buckfast breeders amongst others. It'll make interesting reading when it's finished.
Apparently they're also finally getting round to comparing current UK Amm to the historical samples Anita Malhotra has and will apparently be able to tell how long the current samples have been isolated from Europe.

Two apiaries swapped around in France... one from South West moved to Paris, and the one in Paris moved to South West?

South West bees had adapted to local forage conditions and altered brood cycle to suit... just about coped in Paris!
Paris bees failed!

 

[B+.]

To be fair to swarm he's laughing at you telling the stories rather than some unfortunate beekeeper suffering the consequences of people like you mixing up the gene pool so their open mated queens have little chance of stability.
I know it doesn't fit your narrative that you're the bad guy but that's how some others see you with your selfish imported queens initiative.

It amounts to the same thing. If you're going to laugh at someone with aggressive bees, they're not going to ask you for advice.

We are never going to agree about selective breeding so I won't waste my time trying to convince you. I know it doesn't fit YOUR narrative to seek to improve what we have. In any case, all of this is just distracting from the information I posted at the start. I have good bees and more and more people are seeing that. My purpose isn't merely to sell queens though. I want to encourage people to work with me and do what I have done.

 

[Hunajavelho]

Most beekeepers don't have Amm or Amc. They have nasty stinging mongrels. They are misled by the "local bee" mantra into believing that all bees are that way. They aren't.
I started this thread by trying to explain just one of the things I am doing. There are lots more projects that you'll never hear about. Why? Because all you want to do is argue instead of listen. If you listened, you might learn something. If you listened, you might see that some of what I am saying is applicable to Amm too.

c'est la vie

Well said and good to have you back B+.

 

[B+.]

Well said and good to have you back B+.

Thanks Hunajavelho. I know a lot of experienced/knowledgeable people have stopped posting here. I'm hoping they'll come back

 

[SDM]

Two apiaries swapped around in France... one from South West moved to Paris, and the one in Paris moved to South West?

South West bees had adapted to local forage conditions and altered brood cycle to suit... just about coped in Paris!
Paris bees failed!

A 10yr old study comparing colonies of the same race isn't what I'm talking about.

 

[B+.]

One of the things I've noticed is that beekeepers here often don't understand the theory underlying selective breeding.
I found this excellent video on YouTube that covers it pretty well (https://youtu.be/b3K3ILdBmSA ). Although this isn't restricted to honeybees, it explains the quantitative genetics, heritability and variance ideas really well.

 

[B+.]

One of the things I've noticed is that beekeepers here often don't understand the theory underlying selective breeding.
I found this excellent video on YouTube that covers it pretty well (https://youtu.be/b3K3ILdBmSA ). Although this isn't restricted to honeybees, it explains the quantitative genetics, heritability and variance ideas really well.

In the attached .pdf, I illustrate this by showing how the expected breeding values of progeny can be anticipated long before the season begins. I then use this to illustrate the effect of sending progeny of two different queens to different mating stations, each populated by very good 4a drone producing colonies.
Breeders can use this to decide which mating station to send their virgin queens to, or, which queen to produce drone for use in instrumental insemination...depending on what profile they want the progeny to have. Of course, there will be variation around the expected values so there will always be some variance between expected values and realised values. This is where testing come in - it is always wise to test several queens from the same line

 

[Swarm]

It amounts to the same thing. If you're going to laugh at someone with aggressive bees, they're not going to ask you for advice.

We are never going to agree about selective breeding so I won't waste my time trying to convince you. I know it doesn't fit YOUR narrative to seek to improve what we have. In any case, all of this is just distracting from the information I posted at the start. I have good bees and more and more people are seeing that. My purpose isn't merely to sell queens though. I want to encourage people to work with me and do what I have done.

Well trying to twist my words and then trying to back it up is another belly laugh I'm afraid.
I shall be more clear ..
It makes me laugh when I hear stories of nasty, stinging mongrels. Invariably circulated by "people like you" () Push the so called virtues of your imported bees and let those virtues do the talking. When you make out that anyone who does not follow your ways has no thought of improvement and slag off their bees as nasty, stinging mongrels, it's no wonder you meet with opposition.
The number of beginners I've seen who fall for this tripe and even worse, I've heard them 'informing' other beginners.
The nasty, stinging 'mongrels' In my area have been a stable population of gentle, black bees for more than ten years. All queens mated naturally. Of course, this all goes pair shape when foreign queens came into the area. A couple of years culling new queens followed, something I've rarely had to do.
The foreign bees were moved and are being replaced with some gorgeous Welsh native queens, which is welcome news but a shame things were messed up by a selfish whim in the first place.
So please, stop spreading malicious gossip.

 

[Beefriendly]

The nasty, stinging 'mongrels' In my area have been a stable population of gentle, black bees for more than ten years. All queens mated naturally. #

Good and fortunate for you. Alas in my area I'm not so lucky, they are nasty stinging buggers and I wasted 5 years trying to breed a colony that didn't chase me around the field after every inspection and swarm at least once a year. Then I saw the light. Couldn't believe the difference a decent queen makes.
I can only naturally breed about 2 generations downstream from my gentle productive imports before their genome becomes more "local" than import and they start off being nasty again.
It's much harder work doing it this way as you need to control virtually very requeening and swarming attempt to make sure you keep a set of gentle hives. Can't even claim I get it 100% right as I've one nasty hive full of black bees to cull/requeen come start of season....and sometimes I really really wish my local bees were nice and gentle...but they aren't.

What surprises me is beekeepers who are fortunate enough to live in an area where their locals are friendly seem to naively assume that this must be true for the rest of the country.....it isn't.

 

[For want of a better word]

Good and fortunate for you. Alas in my area I'm not so lucky, they are nasty stinging buggers and I wasted 5 years trying to breed a colony that didn't chase me around the field after every inspection and swarm at least once a year. Then I saw the light. Couldn't believe the difference a decent queen makes.
I can only naturally breed about 2 generations downstream from my gentle productive imports before their genome becomes more "local" than import and they start off being nasty again.
It's much harder work doing it this way as you need to control virtually very requeening and swarming attempt to make sure you keep a set of gentle hives. Can't even claim I get it 100% right as I've one nasty hive full of black bees to cull/requeen come start of season....and sometimes I really really wish my local bees were nice and gentle...but they aren't.

What surprises me is beekeepers who are fortunate enough to live in an area where their locals are friendly seem to naively assume that this must be true for the rest of the country.....it isn't.

OK we get it!
Have you tried any of Chain Bridge Honey's nice dark bees in your area?
Chons da

 

[B+.]

OK we get it!
Have you tried any of Chain Bridge Honey's nice dark bees in your area?
Chons da

.....and there we have it folks! It's not about performance. It's all about colour!

 

[For want of a better word]

.....and there we have it folks! It's not about performance. It's all about colour!

Quite what drove you to that conclusion?
In a post to a new beekeeper ... suggestion was made to look at Exmoor bees " local bees bred in the way of BA"
Not IMPORTED MONGRELS !!

Chons da

 

[B+.]

Quite what drove you to that conclusion?
In a post to a new beekeeper ... suggestion was made to look at Exmoor bees " local bees bred in the way of BA"
Not IMPORTED MONGRELS !!

Chons da

As far as I can see, the only person talking about imported mongrels is you. That is all well

 

[Swarm]

.....and there we have it folks! It's not about performance. It's all about colour!

For some of us it's about the preservation of our indigenous sub species. Given that the colour of Amm is black, it would be a bit stupid to think that wasn't the first, very obvious, visual consideration before any other.