Choosing your breeder queen

[B+.]

But you do bring in foreign bees, which was the subtle point that you obviously missed.

You make it sound like I was trying to disguise that. I have never hidden that I am breeder NL-55-15 on www.beebreed.eu - the biggest bee breeding programme in Europe (possibly even in the world).
In order to ensure reliability of testing results, we test each others queens. I have German and Dutch carnica which I will test alongside my own (instrumentally inseminated) carnica - made in Bedfordshire, UK. All of this is done using a common testing protocol and analysed in the same system to provide breeding values for each queen and her colony. By extension this, together with the breeding values of the sire (4a or 1b) provide expected breeding values for the progeny (1a) queens.

 

[Ian123]

But you do bring in foreign bees, which was the subtle point that you obviously missed.

Yes and they are excellent it’s a great shame we have hardly any true breeders/organisations in this country that can produce similar quality queens.

 

[Swarm]

You make it sound like I was trying to disguise that. I have never hidden that I am breeder NL-55-15 on www.beebreed.eu - the biggest bee breeding programme in Europe (possibly even in the world).
In order to ensure reliability of testing results, we test each others queens. I have German and Dutch carnica which I will test alongside my own (instrumentally inseminated) carnica - made in Bedfordshire, UK.

How do you work that out?
Instrumental Invasion is the only way you can continue with foreign bees, stop trying to kid yourself and everyone else.
I find the whole process a bit sick to be quite honest, it's an intrusion, probing some knocked out insect, it removes the creature's right to breed naturally and is far too too much like date ****.
Should we start with humans next?
Honey bees are not in danger of extinction, which is the only time I would consider artificial means of saving them.
What a sad indictment it is when these selfish acts are touted as 'the way'.
It's just your way and those who don't follow have to just put up with it.
Time to ban imports if we really want to save the bees.

 

[Swarm]

Yes and they are excellent it’s a great shame we have hardly any true breeders/organisations in this country that can produce similar quality queens.

Unsustainable.

 

[B+.]

Unsustainable.

I'm sorry that it doesn't suit your narrative swarm but I've been doing this for more years than I care to remember (>15) so it is completely sustainable.

 

[B+.]

How do you work that out?
Instrumental Invasion is the only way you can continue with foreign bees, stop trying to kid yourself and everyone else.
I find the whole process a bit sick to be quite honest, it's an intrusion, probing some knocked out insect, it removes the creature's right to breed naturally and is far too too much like date ****.
Should we start with humans next?
Honey bees are not in danger of extinction, which is the only time I would consider artificial means of saving them.
What a sad indictment it is when these selfish acts are touted as 'the way'.
It's just your way and those who don't follow have to just put up with it.
Time to ban imports if we really want to save the bees.

Wow.
What sort of logic is that?
According to your logic. instrumental insemination is completely unacceptable except when it isn't (if the species is at risk). It is, therefore, not an absolute prohibition you want to impose. It's a subjective one.
What about the millions of pigs that are inseminated annually? You do like bacon, don't you?
Some of us want bees that overwinter better, produce more honey, swarm less, sting less, stay calm on the comb, etc. Don't you?

 

[Ian123]

Unsustainable.

No it’s perfectly sustainable and yields very good results, I am not saying all groups or organisations are good though there’s some poor examples...take BIBBA as an example I would guess from your reply to b+ that there are other issues.

 

[B+.]

No it’s perfectly sustainable and yields very good results, I am not saying all groups or organisations are good though there’s some poor examples...take BIBBA as an example I would guess from your reply to b+ that there are other issues.

BIBBA is actually a misnomer. They would have you believe that it stands for "Bee improvement and Bee Breeders Association" but they are only interested in Amm. I had a very unpleasant experience with them when I mistakenly believed that they were open minded enough to accept breeders of other races
They are basically a cult and do no bee improvement that I have ever been able to discern.

 

[Ian123]

“Should we start with humans next?”...........we already do it’s called IVF and an amazing thing it is for many families inc mine.......” I had a very unpleasant experience with them”.....in fairness as long as you could manage a speedy amble you could easily outpace such unpleasantness.

 

[Mint Bee]

Steve,

please give it a rest, its getting very boring that as soon as anyone mention anything other than your preferred bees and ways of keeping them you become aggressive towards them. Personally I don't care how or what others are keeping. The individuals are a long way from you. may be work with a local group who have the same ideals as you, and let us know the positive outcomes , rather than attacking others.

Tim

 

[B+.]

.” I had a very unpleasant experience with them”.....in fairness as long as you could manage a speedy amble you could easily outpace such unpleasantness.

For my part, I've become a lot more certain of my ground than I used to be. I only knew then that they weren't as open as they claimed to be. It bothered me that they portrayed themselves as an open/inclusive group. My experience was that this was only true so long as you accepted everything they said and continued paying your membership subscription. When I left, things became very nasty with several downright rude phone calls trying to get me to "recant".
I used the word "cult" because that was how they behaved. To me, that word suits them more than any other I can think of.
In any case, lets not re-open old wounds. This thread is not about them

 

[Swarm]

Sorry if you get bored Tim but so do I with all this stingy, swarmy BS. Have a read back through various threads and maybe you will understand that it becomes a little bit tiring hearing a certain few describe your bees in this manner. I've posted plenty of positive results, lovely gentle colonies but it makes no difference, the same nonsense, stingy, aggressive, swarmy. So please, don't tell me to give it a rest or at least address the other side as well? If you truly don't care one way or the other.

Now we get a bacon analogy, it's hysterical. We can have bacon without AI surely? If not, how on earth did we manage before? 15 years of importing bees and using artificial means to reproduce them does not describe sustainable to me, it's just maintaining them through artificial intervention.
I see a big difference between saving an endangered species and making money, though the species is probably only endangered thanks to us in the first place.

IVF? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that used where conceiving is a problem?

And it all ends with silly, abusive pops at an organisation who are not even involved in the discussion by faceless user names on an internet forum.

 

[SDM]

God forbid we ever see the day when we rely on mankind to make bees!!!


Instrumental Invasion is the only way you can continue with foreign bees, stop trying to kid yourself and everyone else.
I find the whole process a bit sick to be quite honest, it's an intrusion, probing some knocked out insect, it removes the creature's right to breed naturally and is far too too much like date ****.

So please, don't tell me to give it a rest or at least address the other side as well?

Since Steve has made it clear he's opposed to all forms of bee breeding and queen rearing and is posting purely as he states out of some vendetta over previous threads cdespite polite requests for him to keep his bile to himself.
Is it not time for admin to block him from this section of the forum so that future threads aren't also cluttered up with his nonsense?

 

[SDM]

I I however also don't see ii suiting my end goals.

I'm intrigued, what are these "end goals" that wouldn't be advanced by ii?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Since Steve has made it clear he's opposed to all forms of bee breeding and queen rearing and is posting purely as he states out of some vendetta over previous threads cdespite polite requests for him to keep his bile to himself.
Is it not time for admin to block him from this section of the forum so that future threads aren't also cluttered up with his nonsense?

No ban is necessary. You alpha males have to just stop calling each other inflammatory names. That’s the stupidity.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. If you don’t share it just say so politely and move on.

 

[Ian123]

“IVF? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that used where conceiving is a problem?”...................yes but your rather crass description of the process is comparable and the end results.

 

[mbc]

I'm intrigued, what are these "end goals" that wouldn't be advanced by ii?

A sensible question, well done!
My end goal is to keep breeding good bees, productive, handleable and robust, in tune with the general population of the area so that the strain is sustainable through open mating.
II could conceivably advance this, but somehow I think the mating process itself, the selection, is important. Why else would colonies narurally produce hundreds and hundreds of drones, the vast majority never likely to mate?

 

[mbc]

And it all ends with silly, abusive pops at an organisation who are not even involved in the discussion by faceless user names on an internet forum.

Ha ha, yes! There's always an assumption that anyone who likes native bees speaks for bibba, gets rolled out ad infinitum.
I haven't been a member of bibba for years, not that I'm not generally supportive of their aims or that I didn't enjoy reading the periodical. The organisation has it's faults but the amount of vitriol sent their way by posters on this forum speaks more of the posters than bibba, how can so much energy be spent bellitling a voluntary amateur organisation of well meaning people joined by a desire to preserve our native bees?
I believe it's defensiveness brought on by a shame incurred from the laziness of having opted for the imports route.

 

[mbc]

“IVF? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that used where conceiving is a problem?”...................yes but your rather crass description of the process is comparable and the end results.

II is circumventing one of the most important aspects of honey bee life, one which they put comparatively enormous amount of resources and risk into.
II is sedating, mechanically manipulating and artificially introducing gametes to a small insect(not to mention the sacrifice of the poor drones!)
It is very clever and useful for breeding and scientific research purposes, but to push it as a technique to use in general bee husbandry is absurd, and crass.
If you're not involved with scientific research it is the preserve of self inflated boffins, not nature lovers(imo).

 

[B+.]

II is circumventing one of the most important aspects of honey bee life, one which they put comparatively enormous amount of resources and risk into.
II is sedating, mechanically manipulating and artificially introducing gametes to a small insect(not to mention the sacrifice of the poor drones!)
It is very clever and useful for breeding and scientific research purposes, but to push it as a technique to use in general bee husbandry is absurd, and crass.
If you're not involved with scientific research it is the preserve of self inflated boffins, not nature lovers(imo).

This is becoming ridiculous.
1. The queens I import are part of an international breeding programme focussed on improving the honeybee, generation after generation. Members of the group exchange breeding material so a certain amount of movement is inevitable.
2. Each queen is the progeny of licenced breeding material which is allowed to establish a colony before being tested according to internationally agreed standards.
3. Only the best performing queens are selected for propagation using instrumental insemination before the cycle begins again with 1a progeny being introduced to nucs to establish their own colony. Isolated mating stations are also used where available.
4. The quality of my queens has been independently verified.Many of the qualities remaining after successive generations.
5. Perhaps the biggest benefit of participating in a large breeding programme is that inbreeding is never an issue. I typically work with inbreeding coefficients that are a fraction of 1%.


I completely understand that you have a moral objection to instrumental insemination even though this limits your ability to improve your bees. However, I don't agree with you - and, judging from the responses posted here, others feel the same way.
I use instrumental insemination to control both sides of the ancestry and I urge people to do the same. I'm not saying it is right for everyone though. You very quickly see that II, without the genetic knowledge of how to use it, is pointless. However, for those who have made a study of honeybee genetics, it offers the means to improve the bees in a way that is difficult to find in this country.