Queen Breeding Pedigree

[Finman]

What beekeepers in Europe do not normally have is 1.8 million colonies of bees traveling to almonds each February. It also does not have neonicotenoids sprayed as heavily. It also does not have hive beetles to contend with yet (excepting Italy). I've lost one colony so far this winter. It was a late split that ran out of stores. I had fed them a gallon of syrup which is usually enough. This particular colony consumed much of the syrup raising a late cycle of brood. The rest of my bees are beginning buildup for spring with typically 1 full frame of brood in each colony. Perhaps you could tell us - with your genetics background - how we could best incorporate mite resistance into a breeding program for honeybees.

Almond productuon : http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/top-almond-producing-countries.html

Fusion. do you know where Europe exists?

You lost a colony this winter? What winter has daily +15C in January?.
In Tuesday it has been forecasted +20C in Hamilton.

Why didn't you feed it? We use to feed colonies in Europe if they are going to starve.
But it is not rare that bigger hives rob a small one.

Varroa is USA the hive killer

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[B+.]

This particular colony consumed much of the syrup raising a late cycle of brood. The rest of my bees are beginning buildup for spring with typically 1 full frame of brood in each colony. Perhaps you could tell us - with your genetics background - how we could best incorporate mite resistance into a breeding program for honeybees.

Beware of trying to measure colony against colony when your climates are hardly comparable. Single colonies are not comparable either. You can only really compare groups of sister queens

 

[Fusion_power]

What I see finman is that California produces more almonds than the rest of the world combined. I also see that almond acreage in California is set to double within 15 years.

B+, evaluating a single queen is still viable, but only evaluates that queens performance. Evaluating a group of sister queens determines the breeding value of the mother of those queens.

 

[B+.]

B+, evaluating a single queen is still viable, but only evaluates that queens performance. Evaluating a group of sister queens determines the breeding value of the mother of those queens.

A single queen is of limited value....but, do it.
You don't need to tell me what breeding values mean. I know them very well.
There is an explanation here http://coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing/4/1/3
Each February, the breeding values for the queens tested the previous summer (1a) are published by Länderinstitut für Bienenkunde Hohen Neuendorf. There are a number of "what if" facilities available that project forward expected breeding values for the progeny of specific matings. These allow the breeder to select potential mating partners or mating sites where the best partners may be found.

 

[Finman]

What I see finman is that California produces more almonds than the rest of the world combined. .

Well..... You are quite a reader. Article says California produces about 70% of world's almonds ......


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[For want of a better word]

A single queen is of limited value....but, do it.
You don't need to tell me what breeding values mean. I know them very well.
There is an explanation here http://coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing/4/1/3
Each February, the breeding values for the queens tested the previous summer (1a) are published by Länderinstitut für Bienenkunde Hohen Neuendorf. There are a number of "what if" facilities available that project forward expected breeding values for the progeny of specific matings. These allow the breeder to select potential mating partners or mating sites where the best partners may be found.

Union street ... did for me!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

Union street ... did for me!

Too much information icanhopit

 

[Fusion_power]

B+, have you considered that using a sister queen mating strategy, up to 25% of the eggs a queen produces could be diploid drones?

A single queen mother produces 20 daughter queens. 10 of them contain one sex allele, 10 another from the queen. The drones produced by these queens may have up to 22 different sex alleles representing all of the drones the queen mother mated with plus the 2 sex alleles the queen carries. However, the distribution of drones will have 1/4 with one of the queen mother's sex alleles, 1/4 with the other of the queen mother's sex alleles, and the remaining 1/2 sharing the remaining 20 sex alleles. if by chance the queen that is mated to these drones carries a duplicate sex allele with one of the alleles from the queen mother, the result is a very high number of diploid drone eggs laid. Statistically it should be about 12.5 percent, however, there is plenty of room for divergence either higher or lower.

 

[B+.]

B+, have you considered that using a sister queen mating strategy, up to 25% of the eggs a queen produces could be diploid drones?

I am not mating sister queens. Wherever did you get that idea from? This is bee breeding for the under-twos. The inbreeding coefficient is usually under 1% (single digits at worst).

 

[Fusion_power]

Interesting, I gave an exact description of the potential problem. The issue is not with mating sister queens. It is that there is no guarantee the queen being mated to the drones produced from a group of sister queens does not share an allele with the queen mother who produced those sister queens. The inbreeding coefficient is not the issue. With a limited number of sex alleles, it is inevitable that this situation will occur on a regular basis with any breeding program where a group of sister queens are used to produce drones. The only way to avoid it would be to type the queens being mated and ensure they do not share sex alleles with the queens producing the drones.

I am trying to present the case that inbreeding is not necessary to get in trouble when there are 20 or fewer sex alleles in the breeding population. Please think of this in terms of the weaknesses of a pedigree based breeding program with honeybees. It does not mean pedigree based breeding is wrong, but it does suggest that strategies are needed to avoid the problem. Here are two such strategies. It should be possible to identify the sex alleles in all of the sister queens that produce drones and then ensure the queens being mated to them do not share the same alleles. It should also be possible to dramatically increase the number of sex alleles in the mating population so that the likelihood of a duplication is dramatically reduced. From the article by Lechner, there are 50 or so sex alleles in a Littorea population in east Africa. This should be a strong hint that we need more of them in the breeding population of bees we keep to produce honey. Now who is doing work to identify and classify the sex alleles?

 

[B+.]

Now who is doing work to identify and classify the sex alleles?

It sounds like a very good project for someone who doesn't even assess his own bees properly and comes out with vague notions of what they are doing. Go to it.

 

[Finman]

It sounds like a very good project for someone who doesn't even assess his own bees properly and comes out with vague notions of what they are doing. Go to it.

I hope B+, that you keep you yourself open minded to new ideas.

But I wonder what heck people are so interested about sex alleles. Honey production would be more interesting.

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.....identify and classify antivarroa alleles from Fusion's stock would be a good job.

When Fusion has described his bees, I think that his apiary is a herd of Russian bees. It stays alive by swarming.
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[B+.]

.identify and classify the sex alleles?--- that is good...

Trolls irritate me.

 

[Finman]

Trolls irritate me.

identify and classify the sex alleles?

Even if somebody offers that job to me with good fee, I would find something else to do.

Here is your allele counting factory

 

[For want of a better word]

Interesting, I gave an exact description of the potential problem. The issue is not with mating sister queens. It is that there is no guarantee the queen being mated to the drones produced from a group of sister queens does not share an allele with the queen mother who produced those sister queens. The inbreeding coefficient is not the issue. With a limited number of sex alleles, it is inevitable that this situation will occur on a regular basis with any breeding program where a group of sister queens are used to produce drones. The only way to avoid it would be to type the queens being mated and ensure they do not share sex alleles with the queens producing the drones.

I am trying to present the case that inbreeding is not necessary to get in trouble when there are 20 or fewer sex alleles in the breeding population. Please think of this in terms of the weaknesses of a pedigree based breeding program with honeybees. It does not mean pedigree based breeding is wrong, but it does suggest that strategies are needed to avoid the problem. Here are two such strategies. It should be possible to identify the sex alleles in all of the sister queens that produce drones and then ensure the queens being mated to them do not share the same alleles. It should also be possible to dramatically increase the number of sex alleles in the mating population so that the likelihood of a duplication is dramatically reduced. From the article by Lechner, there are 50 or so sex alleles in a Littorea population in east Africa. This should be a strong hint that we need more of them in the breeding population of bees we keep to produce honey. Now who is doing work to identify and classify the sex alleles?

http://www.marlin.ac.uk/species/detail/1328

They are mollusks not insects....
and hermaphrodites to boot.

We call them winkles, and very tasty too with vinegar, brown bread and a bottle of brown ale!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

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What I have realized from these discussions, real beebreeding is serious and hard systematic work.

Open breeding simply destroyes the achieved results. So tell the reports of North Carolina University .

This all puts in order the hobby beebreeders who makes miracles by doing nothing.

I have planned, what if I start to measure the cleaning activity of my colonies next summer?
Answer is, do not do that. Vain job in my level of apiary size. Only wasting time.

. It is better to do 3-frame cages, where I put the laying queen during 3 weeks in main yield. And chemicals finish the job.

And North Carolina reports say, that high hygienic does not save from varroa.
I must do something more usefull.

In small apiaries inbreeding problems are evident. If you achieve something, soon you must pour all away. These are my experinces during last 30 years.

 

[B+.]

.
What I have realized from these discussions, real beebreeding is serious and hard systematic work.

Open breeding simply destroyes the achieved results.
<snip>

In small apiaries inbreeding problems are evident. If you achieve something, soon you must pour all away. These are my experinces during last 30 years.

Indeed. I am a bit obsessive about this. I just feel that if everyone did something we wouldn't be in the mess we are with our bees now.
Look at what has been achieved in Germany when beekeepers work together. Other countries are starting to emulate what the Germans have done and are seeing the benefits of cooperation. Why can't we do it too?
I realise that this will not appeal to everyone, but, I hope others will pick up the baton and do whatever they can.

 

[Swarm]

Well..... You are quite a reader. Article says California produces about 70% of world's almonds ......


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Doesn't that amount to the same thing? He said more than the rest of the World put together, judging by the 30% v 70% that's more than twice as much.

 

[Finman]

Doesn't that amount to the same thing? He said more than the rest of the World put together, judging by the 30% v 70% that's more than twice as much.

Yeah... A good comment.
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More than rest of world = twice as much. Let me think

 

[Finman]

Indeed. I am a bit obsessive about this. I just feel that if everyone did something we wouldn't be in the mess we are with our bees now. can.

Huge work to breed the British people, at least at the age of 60. And the new generation omits the habit from dad to son. Genetics does not help.

Seems bad...