Queen Breeding Pedigree

[Finman]

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Why I mix pastures to the pedigree.

Yields are difficult to compare between yards, because yields are different. My experience is that it is quite normal, that yield can be 3 fold, even if hives are same similar

Best way is to compare hives in same yard, when you compare the the yield and the number of boxes/size of colony.

There are so many factors in yield, and it is difficult to find places where everything is splended.

- amount of bee plant species. Long blooming time/ one species 2 week blooming

- no other beekeepers on pastures/ over grazing

- how many colonies each pasture stands

- short trips, main yield inside 1 km radius

- not all eggs in one basket. If main plant does not give nectar, what then

- pastures sensitive to dryness

- even good pastures become old and they changes. How do you notice that?

- internet and books are full of wrong knowledge about bee plants and about pastures. Very few researches have actually done.
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- balance hives would be good, but balances are very expencive.
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[B+.]

Future brings then what it brings. I like surprises.
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I see. I would have thought that you'd put that university education to some use though. What use is knowledge if you don't use it?

 

[Finman]

I see. I would have thought that you'd put that university education to some use though. What use is knowledge if you don't use it?

Keep on thinking... Perhaps your question clear out some day.

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[B+.]

In any sort of breeding programme, there is always a pedigree for both the dam and the sire.

Purely by coincidence, I noticed that part 3 of the BBKA Certificate in Honey Bee Breeding requires a "review of the candidates records, with detail related particularly to those colonies used in the breeding programme for a minimum of three years. These need also to include pedigrees of the breeder queens and should reflect the criteria used for selection".
p.60 BBKA News No.224 February 2017

 

[Little John]

I'm beginning to have serious doubts about breeding - especially with regard to Varroa-tolerance. The choosing of larvae by the beekeeper, or by the bees themselves - as far as we know - for development into queens is done so randomly. And so the only way adaptation can be influenced is by altering the percentage of drones which successfully mate with that queen prior to the production of those larvae.

Yet mating success appears to be influenced only by drone strength and endurance, and no other factors - and so it is only when increased strength and/or endurance happen to coincide with a desirable trait - such as Varroa-tolerance - that there will be an increased likelihood of that trait being passed-on to the next generation. And how likely is that ?

As it is, beekeepers can indeed influence the chances of (what they see as) a desirable trait being passed-on to the next generation by simply increasing the numbers of drones available known to be directly associated with that trait. But this is a human activity equivalent to attempting to push water uphill - for the moment you stop, nature will simply revert to it's default state, and all that effort will have been for nothing.
LJ

 

[Finman]

I'm beginning to have serious doubts about breeding - especially with regard to Varroa-tolerance. The choosing of larvae by the beekeeper, or by the bees themselves - as far as we know - for development into queens is done so randomly.
LJ

I have thought, that I have known something about varroa tolerance. Now, during half a year, it has cleared out, that tolerance in hybrids and in open mating does not work.

That was very new, that when queen sellers send their queens, they are often bybrids and do not give mite protection to the colony.

Amazing is, that numerous hobby beekeepers have got from heaven a mite resistat hives or the whole apiary mite resistant hives. Only breeding program has been : Do nothing and trust.

After 20 years breeding of Russian bees the researched truth is that most Russian hives are hybrids, which are slightly better than ordinary bees in mite issue.

Even sad to know that. And problems of mite have become worser year after year. Experienced beekeepers have seen that during 30 years.
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And many even hope that feral bees are back in these conditions.

But do not give up hope. What we can do is to shoot the messenger....

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[Finman]

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Managing Varroa Mites in Honey Bee Colonies . North Carolina university Feb 2016

Comparision between 9 methods

Look summary table:

It is said that mite tolerant bee stocks give moderate efficacy against varroa.


Formic acid, Apistan's fluvalinate and Coumaphos gives high efficacy


But we know that In Europe Apistan does not hive efficacy. Kills only 50% of mites.

University:

Mite-tolerant stocks
Some of the more exciting advances in varroa mite control has been in honey bee genetics. In recent years, much work has been done with the development of particular strains of honey bees that have shown tolerance to the varroa mite. Though the mechanisms are not completely understood, some behavioral and physiological traits likely play a role in varroa resistance. Today, several strains of bees are available that have been shown to reduce the number of varroa mites within their colonies.

Russian strain. Researchers at the USDA Honey Bee Research Lab in Baton Rouge, Louisiana have imported bees from the Primorsky region in far-eastern Russia because they co-exist with the original host species of varroa (the sister honey-bee species, Apis cerana). Because these Russian bees have been exposed to the mite for a longer period compared to other strains, it follows that they may have developed a resistance to the mite. Indeed, research has shown that they are over twice as resistant to varroa as other commercial stocks. Moreover, for reasons that are yet unclear, this stock appears to be highly resistant to the tracheal mites, a second parasitic mite that infests honey bee colonies. The Russian strain has been made available for commercial purchase in the U.S. after a protracted period in quarantine.

VSH stock. Standing for Varroa Sensitive Hygiene, this trait was selected for by USDA researchers using classical bee breeding and instrumental insemination techniques. The bees have been selected to detect varroa mites in the cells of developing pupae and remove them before the mites can reproduce. This stock has been crossed with other, more common commercial stocks in an attempt to integrate this useful trait into other bee strains.

Hygienic behavior. Many queen breeders have actively bred for colony brood-nest “cleanliness” or hygienic behavior. Much research has demonstrated lower levels of numerous diseases in colonies selectively bred to uncap and removed diseased or parasitized brood (e.g., the Minnesota Hygienic stock). While these stocks are not immune to varroa parasitism, they may significantly reduce the need for other control methods.


PS: according this report LASI queens will not give varroa tolerancy even in theory.

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[Fusion_power]

Job is very difficult. You see yourself, how successful the goal has been after 20 years.

Mite resistant bees are highly effective controlling mites. Breeding mite resistance into lines with other desirable traits has not yet been done on a consistent basis. An attitude that "it can't be done" seems to be a primary reason why bees in Europe are almost all mite susceptible.

The Achilles heel of pedigree based breeding is that it drastically reduces the diversity of drones mating with the queen. There is abundant proof that queens mated with highly diverse drones are more disease and pest resistant and tend to have better performance in honey production. For this reason, I suspect that pedigree based breeding will ultimately fail to achieve the potential improvements beekeepers desire. There should be a relatively easy way to correct this by incorporating multigenic mating into a pedigree based system. I don't see this being done with breeding programs today. Ask yourself why on an evolutionary basis queens mate with an average of 17 drones? What biological reason would they have that makes extreme multiple mating so necessary?

I'll keep breeding my bees for high levels of mite resistance as the primary criterion for their survival. With a few years work, I expect to introgress traits from Buckfast to improve honey production and reduce swarming tendency.

 

[Finman]

Breeding mite resistance into lines with other desirable traits has not yet been done on a consistent basis. An attitude that "it can't be done" seems to be a primary reason why bees in Europe are almost all mite susceptible..

You do not know what you writing.
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Yeah... Primary reason why Europe does not have 40% annual dead rate in beekeeping.

Fusion's goal: "I'll keep breeding my bees for high levels of mite resistance as the primary criterion for their survival."

You have a view to Europen beekeeping with criteria to keep hives alive.

I propose that you omit more adult attitude to your writings. You cannot do jokes about everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLH_QHTptFg

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[B+.]

this is a human activity equivalent to attempting to push water uphill - for the moment you stop, nature will simply revert to it's default state, and all that effort will have been for nothing.
LJ

Yet almost all domestic animals used in food production now come from breeding programmes. Nature doesn't intervene when cows or pigs are inseminated. The difficulty in successfully breeding honeybees naturally is controlling the stock available for virgin queens to mate with. This is exactly what they do on the islands in the Wadden Sea (off the north coast of Germany and around as far as Vlieland off the coast of The Netherlands).
European beekeepers can send virgin queens to these mating stations for as little as a few euros. Cost isn't the issue....the will to do it is.

 

[Little John]

Ask yourself why on an evolutionary basis queens mate with an average of 17 drones? What biological reason would they have that makes extreme multiple mating so necessary?

The mating process appears to be non-discriminatory (i.e. the virgin queen doesn't appear to play any part in selecting which drones get to mate with her), and so I would suggest that type of number ensures that the virgin queen receives sperm from at least some drones other than those originating from her own mother.


The pi$$-poor fecundity of the honey bee is another aspect which is generally overlooked - and by 'fecundity' I mean the 'genetic amplification' factor, rather than just egg-laying power.
Sure, a queen lays hundreds of thousand of eggs in her lifetime - but how many of those go on to become 'genetic replicators' (queens). Half-a-dozen, a dozen maybe ? And likewise, putting a couple of thousand drones in the air is the same story - only a dozen or so - on average - will get to mate.

Contrast that level of fecundity with (say) that of the mackerel, where between half and one-and-a-half million eggs are laid each year - half of which will be female, and capable of producing the same number when/if they mature.
Of course there are significant predation losses, but there are also many thousands of times more opportunity for genetic mutations to occur - thus any mutation offering an advantage will tend to survive to maturity, and those genes quickly amplified onto the next generation by a factor of several tens of thousands. And it's exactly the same story with so many plants which send millions of seeds into the air annually.

Contrast that level of fecundity with the honey bees' typical half-dozen - or on a good day with a following wind, maybe ten or twenty. Is it any wonder why the honey bee has not changed in any significant way over millions of years ?

The honey bee must be one of the very few organisms in which fertilisation of an egg renders it - unless interventional action is taken - genetically sterile.
LJ

 

[B+.]

The honey bee must be one of the very few organisms in which fertilisation of an egg renders it - unless interventional action is taken - genetically sterile.
LJ

This is all off topic. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Mackerel aren't honeybees.

 

[B+.]

I'm beginning to have serious doubts about breeding - especially with regard to Varroa-tolerance. The choosing of larvae by the beekeeper, or by the bees themselves - as far as we know - for development into queens is done so randomly. And so the only way adaptation can be influenced is by altering the percentage of drones which successfully mate with that queen prior to the production of those larvae.

Yet mating success appears to be influenced only by drone strength and endurance, and no other factors - and so it is only when increased strength and/or endurance happen to coincide with a desirable trait - such as Varroa-tolerance - that there will be an increased likelihood of that trait being passed-on to the next generation. And how likely is that ?

As it is, beekeepers can indeed influence the chances of (what they see as) a desirable trait being passed-on to the next generation by simply increasing the numbers of drones available known to be directly associated with that trait. But this is a human activity equivalent to attempting to push water uphill - for the moment you stop, nature will simply revert to it's default state, and all that effort will have been for nothing.
LJ

The selection of young larvae may be random but the testing and selection process isn't.
Adaptation is regulated by selection of both sides of the pedigree in a proper breeding programme (using both natural (island mating stations) and artificial insemination).
The vitality of drones is critical to the process and special measures have to be taken to ensure enough stocks of the selected line are placed within range of the mating sites (https://youtu.be/ZCcbj1Gv9UM?t=20m47s ).
I agree that it is a difficult task. However, look at what has been acheived already in Germany and other European countries. If beekeepers co-operate, I believe it can be done.

 

[wightbees]

The more Drones the better chance of getting a mix of Genetics, as the drone is only has 16 of the mothers 32 chromosome. Each drone as I understand it is identical to the next if the mother only mated once but by multiple mating this gives the genetics mix for the future .

 

[B+.]

The more Drones the better chance of getting a mix of Genetics, as the drone is only has 16 of the mothers 32 chromosome. Each drone as I understand it is identical to the next if the mother only mated once but by multiple mating this gives the genetics mix for the future .

Not quite Wightbees. The drone inherits all 16 chromosomes from his mother so all of his sperm are identical. The sperm of his "brothers (i.e. the drones produced by the same mother) may be slightly different because he has a random assortment of 16 from the queens 32 chromosomes.
This is what makes the selective breeding so difficult as you are always dealing with mean values. Even using single-drone inseminations (sdi), the assessments are always performed at the colony level.
SDI is a technique which is sometimes used in instrumental insemination but has to be used with caution as it can increase the level of inbreeding if too many generations are inseminated this way from closely related stock

 

[For want of a better word]

The more Drones the better chance of getting a mix of Genetics, as the drone is only has 16 of the mothers 32 chromosome. Each drone as I understand it is identical to the next if the mother only mated once but by multiple mating this gives the genetics mix for the future .

True... that is why our Native bee mating areas are flooded with drones, with however the drone producing " for flooding" colonies selected for the traits that we wish to select for.
This of course makes recording of breeding stock and the queens lines difficult.

This is similar to the german method of island open mating.... but I believe that a limited gene pool of drones is utilised.

AI does not allow any error as the lines for breeding are carefully controlled, and both methodologies of selection, without care, can lead to a very small genepool

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

This is similar to the german method of island open mating.... but I believe that a limited gene pool of drones is utilised.

In Germany there are quite strict controls over what race of bee you can keep in an area. We don't have that here (perhaps we should?).
They also have a system where breeding stock are licenced (Körschein) for use as breeding animals. Again, we have nothing like that here (perhaps we should?)
Land based mating stations are not regarded as secure as the island mating stations.

 

[Finman]

In Germany there are quite strict controls over what race of bee you can keep in an area. We don't have that here (perhaps we should?).
They also have a system where breeding stock are licenced (Körschein) for use as breeding animals. Again, we have nothing like that here (perhaps we should?)
Land based mating stations are not regarded as secure as the island mating stations.

beebreeders are mad........... or they should...

 

[B+.]

beebreeders are mad........... or they should...

These are the classes allocated to breeding stock. Class A or Av will usually be selected for use on mating stations

Breeding Class Requirements

According to and in addition to the breeding guidelines of the German Beekeepers Association.
The following has been determined::
Class Av (*):
2 Varroa criteria assessed
Varroa index over 100%
2 customary breeding values over 100%
2 customary breeding values not below 95%
6 sibling colonies or at least 0.38 certainty of all customary breeding values
At least three generations have been bred, or all relevant traits and performance can be documented
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed
Class A:
All 4 customary breeding values are over 100%
6 sibling colonies or at least 0.38 certainty of all customary breeding values
At least three generations have been bred, or all relevant traits and performance can be documented
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed
Class B:
The average of all breeding values is greater 100%
6 sibling colonies or at least 0.38 certainty of all customary breeding values
At least three generations have been bred, or all relevant traits and performance can be documented
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed
Class P:
Requirements below those for Class B
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed
Use only for breeding tests; offspring of these colonies should not mate.
Class D:
Selection for drone colony breeding is appropriate if:
The mother colony has been bred and
The traits correspond to the standard of the breeding population
The representatives are responsible for the accuracy of queens' recorded breeding classes.
(*) Special Note: When printing the breeding certificate (online), "v" is automatically added to breeding class A when both Varroa criteria have been assessed and the Varroa index is over 100%.

 

[Fusion_power]

Primary reason why Europe does not have 40% annual dead rate in beekeeping.

What beekeepers in Europe do not normally have is 1.8 million colonies of bees traveling to almonds each February. It also does not have neonicotenoids sprayed as heavily. It also does not have hive beetles to contend with yet (excepting Italy). I've lost one colony so far this winter. It was a late split that ran out of stores. I had fed them a gallon of syrup which is usually enough. This particular colony consumed much of the syrup raising a late cycle of brood. The rest of my bees are beginning buildup for spring with typically 1 full frame of brood in each colony. Perhaps you could tell us - with your genetics background - how we could best incorporate mite resistance into a breeding program for honeybees.