Queen Breeding Pedigree

[wightbees]

Heterozygotic

 

[Finno]

When I was young, I use to put all lights off

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Never thought you were they shy sort

 

[Fusion_power]

Never thought you were the shy sort

Probably isn't. Could have somewhat to do with being afraid he might accidentally open his eyes so he turns off the light as a precaution.

 

[wightbees]

Hiding something maybe?

 

[Fusion_power]

To get the conversation back on bee breeding:

https://gsejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12711-014-0053-9

B+ referenced the work of Brascamp and Bijma in a previous post. This gives a weighting scale for evaluation of performance. Notably absent is a thorough discussion of using mixed drone semen for AI of queens. This is a method Sue Cobey used in development of NWC stock. Mentioned but not discussed in detail is using gamete relationship based selection. Not mentioned is duplicate sex allele skewing which occurs as selection is pursued over a few generations. This text is a good treatment of the math behind different methods of evaluating colonies and of weighting formulas to compare colony performance in similar conditions.


http://beesource.com/resources/usda/breeding-and-genetics-of-honey-bees/

This work by Harbo and Rinderer is a good mid-level review of of breeding basics. Notably absent is a detailed discussion of sex allele effects when even a small amount of inbreeding is used.


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241065842_The_Genetic_Architecture_of_Honeybee_Breeding

You will have to click on the download button to get to the pdf file. This has a good discussion of pleiotropy and how it is impacted when selection is performed to enhance desired traits. The best part of this document is the extensive references to previous work. The section on inbreeding effects associated with the sex allele is moderately thorough, but does not discuss sex allele skewing or the impact of mating to drones produced by sister lines of queens.

http://www.beeculture.com/breeding-mite-biting-bees-to-control-varroa/

Tossing this one in because it is a relevant document for selecting mite mauling traits. Breeding honeybees can be thought of in terms of number of traits selected and how they change when selection is carried on for a number of generations. Pedigrees are all important when multiple traits are involved but are of limited use when single traits are targeted. It is perfectly feasible to breed bees with high levels of mite mauling by identifying colonies that express the trait and breeding from them while eliminating all lower performing colonies. No pedigree is required for single trait selection. This is exactly what Bill Carpenter did to select his mite resistant bees.

I can't provide a link to Ruttner's book, but it is readily available from numerous sources. He inspired Brother Adam to trial several advanced selection methods that significantly contributed to the development of Buckfast bees. "Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee"


What to my knowledge has not yet been written is a good discussion of breeding methods to use when each queen can be tested to identify the sex alleles she carries. With this knowledge, it is possible to reduce inbreeding at the sex allele locus to zero in just 3 generations of selection. With isolated mating stations set up using queens with known sex alleles and mating queens with different sex alleles, the inbreeding effect of the sex allele can be taken out of the evaluation. There would still be inbreeding effects from other genes but the massive skewing effect of the sex allele would not be a factor.

 

[Finman]

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How many sex alleles you apiary has, Fusion?
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[Fusion_power]

I don't have a way to test directly, but it is estimated there are 20 or less present in the U.S. Given the brood patterns I see, I would estimate there are 7 or 8 sex alleles in my bees. It is not enough.


I should have mentioned that pedigree based breeding programs try to get around sex allele skewing by measuring brood viability. The fewer skipped cells, the more likely a queen has a rare sex allele. Breeding from these high brood viability queens tends to retain rare sex alleles in the breeding population. This method still gets in trouble over enough time, usually because of the effect of mating queens to drones produced by sister queens. This can artificially inflate the brood viability in some circumstances leading to breeding decisions that ultimately reduce the number of sex alleles in the population.

 

[Finman]

I don't have a way to test directly, but it is estimated there are 20 or less present in the U.S. Given the brood patterns I see, I would estimate there are 7 or 8 sex alleles in my bees. It is not enough.

https://www.amazon.com/Amlong-Crystal-Ball-150-150mm-Clear/dp/B000PNACEG

 

[Finman]

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Purity of sold Russian honey bees


November 2016 http://www.beeculture.com/russian-honey-bees/

As far as I understand, Russian bee breeders are more worried about strain purity of Russian beemore than their sex alleles.


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Thus, it is important to understand that customers buying a Russian queen are not simply buying from a specific line, which is not revealed, but instead purchasing the results of multiple years of selection from the best mite resistant and highest honey producing queens available from all certified members.”

Each prospective member is issued a detailed manual, which provides a good many criteria for certification. According to the RHBA web site: “To become a certified breeder for the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association members must annually demonstrate their qualifications by producing queens from designated lines in isolated mating yards. These mating yards must be stocked with sufficient numbers of appropriate drone source colonies. Line queens must be produced in sufficient numbers so that a large number of colonies started with these queens can be monitored for further selection and additional queens can be shipped to fellow members to lead drone source colonies and also so that the lines can be evaluated by the entire membership.”
Becoming certified is not an easy task. Steven Coy was one of the original members of the RHBA and did not have to jump through many hoops in the beginning. However, since leaving Coy’s Honey Farm to form his own queen-rearing business, he was forced to essentially start over as a new member. He says he now has a greater appreciation for the work and planning involved in becoming a certified member, concluding: “We have had a total of 20 members since our inception. Only 12 people have been able to do this.”

 

[Finman]

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Russian bees have been bred now 20 years in USA, and natural selection had worked over 100 years with varroa on Primorsky region (Siberia). Genetically Russian bees are Caucasian race.

As I understood from North Carolinan resports, most queens sold under "Russian Queens" are not actually genuine Russians. They are open mated and hybrids, which do not have ability to kill mites.

It seems now that the group of Russian bee breeders are taking the issue under control and they demand from breeders same things what B+ has explained about his backround project.

Even to university research programs is difficult to get genuine Russian colonies. Beekeepers themselves do not know what their bees really are.


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Breeders results from their bees' ability to kill mites are very different what NC university has reported.


Mite-tolerant stocks.....Relative Effectiveness of mite treatment : ....Moderate

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/managing-varroa-mites-in-honey-bee-colonies

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/comparison-of-russian-and-italian-honey-bees

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Primorsky on map

Weather today in Primorsk, day temp near -3 - 0C

Primorsk latitude 54 degree, (Manchester 53.5)

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[Finman]

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Russian bees have now bred 20 years.

As I understood from North Carolinan resports, most queens sold under "Russian Queens" are not actually genuine Russians. They are open mated and hybrids, which do not have ability to kill mites.

It seems now that the group of Russian bee breeders are taking the issue under control and they demand from breeders same things what B+ has explained about his backround project.

Even to university research programs it is difficult to get genuine Russian colonies. Beekeepers themselves do not know what their bees really are.

DNA tests have been done from lines.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Breeders results from their bees' ability to kill mites are very different what NC university has reported.


Mite-tolerant stocks.....Relative Effectiveness of mite treatment : ....Moderate

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/managing-varroa-mites-in-honey-bee-colonies

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/comparison-of-russian-and-italian-honey-bees

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So, the genetical challenges are very different now than number of sex alleles.

I suggest, that those who are interested about sex alleles think more the issue, do I keep lights on or off.

3 words which depress every man:... is ..... it ..... there...
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[Finman]

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Sorry, Primorsk Krai latitude is 45 degree, same as Venice Italy

Above North Korea to north east.
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Actually Russia has many Primorsk named places.

 

[Fusion_power]

V=1 - 1/a is the formula to calculate brood viability. I typically see about 85 to 90 percent which would indicate 8 sex alleles in my bees.

finman, Russian bees come with a host of problems not least of which is shutting down all brood rearing when pollen is not available.

 

[Finman]

V=1 - 1/a is the formula to calculate brood viability. I typically see about 85 to 90 percent which would indicate 8 sex alleles in my bees.
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From where heck you draw that

You see brood viability? You surely see nothing.

And typically....

Oh dear your imagination...

There are many reasons, why brood area has holes.

And when the bees eate the emerged larvae, queen lays to those holes again.

Lots of holes become when bees have lack of protein and they eate more or less larvae.
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[wightbees]

Nature has proved that working with limited line of bees that a mutation drift happens .

 

[Finman]

Nature has proved that working with limited line of bees that a mutation drift happens .

Most mutations are bad

 

[Hunajavelho]

From where heck you draw that

You see brood viability? You surely see nothing.


There are many reasons, why brood area has holes.

And when the bees eate the emerged larvae, queen lays to those holes again.

Lots of holes become when bees have lack of protein and they eate more or less larvae.
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Logically brood viability is assessed in spring and summer during periods of maximum build-up. The best rating is given if the brood is free of disease even during critical phases. Down-rating is immediate if during appropriate weather or harvest conditions defects show up in the brood pattern.

Account should be taken in evaluation of a colony closely related or of pure race, of the brood eliminated before capping. At the end of summer consideration should also be given to the effects of severe varroa infestation.

 

[Finman]

Logically brood viability is assessed in spring .

When I debate with Fusion, it is so funny thing that he has there winter and 21C out temp. Difficult to find common language, and it is not even necessary. Here temps dive soon to the level -8C.

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[Fusion_power]

The formula was given by Page and Marks in 1982. It was reviewed by Peter Oxley and Benjamin Oldroyd in one of the PDF's linked in a previous post. It is accurate, all you have to do is have a few photos of brood frames and count 100 cells to see how many have missing larvae. Do three checks on a colony over a few weeks and the accuracy will improve. My bees happen to like cells of pollen scattered through the brood nest which makes counting brood cells a bit more difficult.

 

[Finman]

and count 100 cells to see how many have missing larvae. .

That does not go that way.

Couple of proffessional beekeepers told once to me, that they have 10 hives in each apiaries.
2 men spend 15 minutes time to handle those 10 hives, and ´then they go to next apiary.

Too late to count missing larvae, if you have not taken care about inbreeding.

I see, if I have abnormal holes in brood frames, but I do not start to count them. I really have better to do in my life than count holes.

I make honey in my hobby beekeeping and not any science.

I will never do "virtual researching". That is my principle.'

Sex alleles is not only problem in inbreeding. I buy every year new couple of new queens, that inbreeding problems cannot pop up in my hives. I have seen what it makes.

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