DNA research on Irish AMM.

[Noddy]

Somewhere, buried deep below the spitting, caterwauling and bitch fighting, there is some good information in this post - somewhere...

If anyone wants to know how wars start, have a read of this post

 

[SDM]

Really ? From the GBBG entry on BIBBA's website...

If

 

[SDM]

I don't really give a toss what kind of bees anyone decides to keep, what I do not like though is the almost evangelical zealotry from both camps when someone mentions an opposite opinion.
It is evident, on every thread where AMM is mentioned, you and your cohort are quick to pounce and conduct an all out attack, reducing the thread from an interesting discussion to the usual nonsense.
It happens from the other side as well, but nowhere near as bad or as vitriolic.
I'm sure that tom Carr will slide back in a moment to do his usual adding petrol to the flames.

You are a joke. When you like what is said it's an " opposing opinion" when you don't it's " an all out attack" . It seems you think opposing opinions have no place on pro Amm propaganda threads.
Thank God we have your voice of sanity to jump in with nothing to add except pot shots at those debating.

 

[mbc]

Indeed....and there is nothing wrong with that. However, the goals are different. A beekeepers interest lies in keeping bees and producing honey with what he has. A breeders interest lies in developing desirable traits for the future (e.g. VSH).
JBM seems content with the status quo and denies the need to breed for the future.

By looking at individuals and families rather than the population as a whole it is your model that denies the need to breed for the future B+.
Anyone could buy in excellent known stock and II them with unrelated known stock of the same variety and have progeny which some should turn out excellent, it's a very attractive and tempting way forward to a small minded person who looks for personal glorification.
The problem arises when the known stock chosen is a square pegg in the round hole of the background population of bees in an area as this compounds the problems involved with mongrel bees rarely breeding true.
The beekeepers with a long term holistic view to breeding better bees sustainably for everyone's future would consider the fact that whatever they do is an infinitesimal blink in the timescale of bees and evolution on our planet.
As I see it the trouble with promoting imports is that it a very selfish way to jump the queue to achieve ones personal goals and to hell with everyone else and the trouble it can cause- not only continuing to stir up and destabilise the background drone population making ii or isolated mating necessary for breeding bees true but also the undeniable and time proven risks of bringing in foreign pests and deseases.
All imho of course; )

 

[madasafish]

By looking at individuals and families rather than the population as a whole it is your model that denies the need to breed for the future B+.
Anyone could buy in excellent known stock and II them with unrelated known stock of the same variety and have progeny which some should turn out excellent, it's a very attractive and tempting way forward to a small minded person who looks for personal glorification.
The problem arises when the known stock chosen is a square pegg in the round hole of the background population of bees in an area as this compounds the problems involved with mongrel bees rarely breeding true.
The beekeepers with a long term holistic view to breeding better bees sustainably for everyone's future would consider the fact that whatever they do is an infinitesimal blink in the timescale of bees and evolution on our planet.
As I see it the trouble with promoting imports is that it a very selfish way to jump the queue to achieve ones personal goals and to hell with everyone else and the trouble it can cause- not only continuing to stir up and destabilise the background drone population making ii or isolated mating necessary for breeding bees true but also the undeniable and time proven risks of bringing in foreign pests and deseases.
All imho of course; )

Rather than have this circular debate - which goes nowhere- any sensible person would look at the systems in use which are proven to work..
ie choose a base to start from - which has proven good characteristics for beekeeping needs - and progress from that..

As you say "mongrels do not breed true". Yes.. fact proven over the years.
So what is official policy in the UK? Breed from mongrels.. and ban importing good stock..

There are several descriptions for that policy and none of them are polite - and none of them deserve to be polite. (And I would suggest the originators of such policy - and its supporters - need to reset their thinking onto a more rational basis.)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You are a joke. When you like what is said it's an " opposing opinion" when you don't it's " an all out attack" . It seems you think opposing opinions have no place on pro Amm propaganda threads.
Thank God we have your voice of sanity to jump in with nothing to add except pot shots at those debating.

Cue the usual personal attacks from Stuart Mackenzie, Just realised why I had you on my ignore list.
Not once Have I seen you contribute anything of value on any thread, nothing but a serial troll under this screen name or your previous one.
Never bring anything to the party apart from p!ss and vinegar.
Back you go where you belong.
Under the stone you crept out from.

 

[SDM]

Cue the usual personal attacks from Stuart Mackenzie, Just realised why I had you on my ignore list.
Not once Have I seen you contribute anything of value on any thread, nothing but a serial troll under this screen name or your previous one.
Never bring anything to the party apart from p!ss and vinegar.
Back you go where you belong.
Under the stone you crept out from.

So says the man pissing vinegar
Can't imagine why you'd take me of that ignore list. Oh yes I already mentioned you can't make up your mind.
The previous account is no secret, it was me after all that requested it was closed.

 

[SDM]

By looking at individuals and families rather than the population as a whole it is your model that denies the need to breed for the future B+.
Anyone could buy in excellent known stock and II them with unrelated known stock of the same variety and have progeny which some should turn out excellent, it's a very attractive and tempting way forward to a small minded person who looks for personal glorification.
The problem arises when the known stock chosen is a square pegg in the round hole of the background population of bees in an area as this compounds the problems involved with mongrel bees rarely breeding true.
The beekeepers with a long term holistic view to breeding better bees sustainably for everyone's future would consider the fact that whatever they do is an infinitesimal blink in the timescale of bees and evolution on our planet.
As I see it the trouble with promoting imports is that it a very selfish way to jump the queue to achieve ones personal goals and to hell with everyone else and the trouble it can cause- not only continuing to stir up and destabilise the background drone population making ii or isolated mating necessary for breeding bees true but also the undeniable and time proven risks of bringing in foreign pests and deseases.
All imho of course; )

Are you seriously suggesting that those wishing to make serious improvements in stock should defer to those content with the status quo ? Sounds like a great plan to achieve very little.

 

[mbc]

Cue the usual personal attacks from Stuart Mackenzie, Just realised why I had you on my ignore list.
Not once Have I seen you contribute anything of value on any thread, nothing but a serial troll under this screen name or your previous one.
Never bring anything to the party apart from p!ss and vinegar.
Back you go where you belong.
Under the stone you crept out from.

If you didn't quote him I wouldn't see the vitriol either

 

[Uncle Betty]

You are a joke. When you like what is said it's an " opposing opinion" when you don't it's " an all out attack" . It seems you think opposing opinions have no place on pro Amm propaganda threads.
Thank God we have your voice of sanity to jump in with nothing to add except pot shots at those debating.

In the context of this thread, at least, I think that your wording there is not the most temperate.

Look who started it, after all !

 

[Brian Bush]

It would be a lot easier if we all accepted others rights to do as they choose. There is far too much you should do as I do. England is a smorgasbord of strains hybrids and everything else in between. It's too late to put the cork back in the bottle.
If you want "pure" strains etc then importation (or II) is about the only way you are going to get them. And if you don't then that's fine. I just get a little fed up of anti-imports mantra's when it's often the only way you can get hold of what you want.

 

[mbc]

If you want "pure" strains etc then importation (or II) is about the only way you are going to get them. And if you don't then that's fine. I just get a little fed up of anti-imports mantra's when it's often the only way you can get hold of what you want.

The grass is always greener

Why would you get fed up of anti-imports mantra's where they are trying to change things for the better? After all, imports have been free flowing all this time and it hasn't led to great British bees, indeed your quote above suggests imports are the way to keep getting what you want, is this not unsustainable and wouldn't it be better to nurture a home grown industry?
If you imagine other nations are streets ahead of us solely due to talented individuals pushing bee breeding forwards then you're mistaken, it takes central organisation and proffesional institutions to get the continuity needed for long term improvements. Isn't it time we had some state backing to improve our bees?
Give the other side a chance

 

[Uncle Betty]

It would be a lot easier if we all accepted others rights to do as they choose...

I just get a little fed up of anti-imports mantra's when it's often the only way you can get hold of what you want.

It is not a decisive argument to plaintively wish that others would just respect 'rights of others to do as they choose'.

You know where I'm coming from with this - rights have always been contested, and no-one is ever obliged to passively accept the right of others to do as they choose.

With great respect to you, a lot of other people are fed up with the selfish 'my rights...' at all costs, attitude.

Imports can get you a hold of what you want, but they can get everyone a hold of what nobody wants.

Perhaps one has to have a vested interest to casually overlook that ?

 

[Beefriendly]

Why would you get fed up of anti-imports mantra's where they are trying to change things for the better?

What tosh.
Why try to change a sows ear when silk purses are already available? Or perhaps you have never experienced what good bees are really like. I often open peoples eyes when I show them the bees I keep.

 

[Uncle Betty]

What tosh.
Why try to change a sows ear when silk purses are already available? Or perhaps you have never experienced what good bees are really like. I often open peoples eyes when I show them the bees I keep.

I doubt whether people's eyes stay open for long with you on full chat.

 

[Beefriendly]

With great respect to you, a lot of other people are fed up with the selfish 'my rights...' at all costs, attitude.

I could give a toss about "my rights". I will do as I see fit to enjoy my beekeeping.
If it flies in the face of current dogma...Tough!
If flies against the law then it becomes a different matter.
We live in a free society and long may it continue.
The same problems beset all beekeepers in trying to have control over their bees mating's. We don't have much control at all...need II in most instances, a route few are willing to take, although twas heartening to see many more dipping their toes as per the recent thread. Good luck.
It's not for me though, I'm afraid.
I take adage from whomever said " A good queen more than pays for herself". In spades I should add, if properly managed and from a respected breeder.

 

[Beefriendly]

I doubt whether people's eyes stay open for long with you on full chat.

Whats the point of adding even more insulting posts???
Oh mighty keyboard warrior!

 

[SDM]

In the context of this thread, at least, I think that your wording there is not the most temperate.

Look who started it, after all !

Perhaps not in this case. But when you say "look who started it " you are falling into the same trap I did with you and assuming that not keeping Amm is the same as being anti Amm. Most I believe, like you( and me) don't really care what others keep( though I'm fond of the colour in my bees and wish it was easier to keep too)

 

[SDM]

Imports can get you a hold of what you want, but they can get everyone a hold of what nobody wants.

Perhaps one has to have a vested interest to casually overlook that ?

Seems to have worked pretty well for the Irish given the counts of imported DNA in their Amm.
It seems imports are fine if they're the "right bees". I've certainly noticed no reticence on the part of the big names at NIHBS et al when it comes to exporting their product.

 

[For want of a better word]

Not rubbish at all. I know of a couple of beekeepers who now keep Italian an Buckfast bees for the same reason....Less likelihood of being stung.

What will the village do for an idiot when you leave?


Agree with JBM.. ignore button does not work when THE loonies posts get quoted!