"Is it our native black bee" DNA would tell?

[Apiarist]

Ruttner authored a Book (with BIBBA) based upon wing morphometrics of Apis mellifera collected in Britain before 1869.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dark-Europ...ooks&sprefix=ruttner+bee,stripbooks,58&sr=1-2
Does anyone know if there has been any other studies performed upon Honey Bees collected before 1904 (or 1869 as they clearly exist, as Ruttner examined them for his book) in British (or Irish) museums (or elsewhere), and especially DNA analysis???

This question and line of thought was triggered after reading this statement from JKB,
"Is it our native black bee and still exists - or isn't it"
in Post "Survivor bees" found in Blenheim Forest

just to give full context, I don't understand why this is even being mentioned or discussed as I am not aware of anyone that contradicts that the Amm was the first (or at least Native) bee here in Britain or Ireland, but it is something that keeps on being brought up by Amm enthusiasts. And it just occurred to me after reading JKB's Post, What If it's not... a DNA test would settle it for once and for all?

PS: In case anyone tries to pick a ... err... debate with me, I think that the A. m. mellifera was the first Apis mellifera to arrive and become established in Britain and Ireland after the last Ice Age, there is no one that I know of that contradicts this opinion, but the issue keeps being brought up as if there are people claiming otherwise?

 

[Finman]

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[Finman]

[QUOTE="Apiarist,

When you look the map of European bee race map, it is very difficult to make different conclusion than what you have made. BLack bee was the first bee to enter to British Isles after Ice Age.

 

[Apiarist]

Then why do Amm beeks keep on insisting that it is Native? (when there is no need to do so)
IF the Amm arrived in Britain say 9000 years ago, and remained in isolation until around 1900, then that might be long enough for a new sub-specie to develop ...
...I have been talking to different Amm beeks that are telling me that research has been done, but not published... without a reasonable explanation?
I have also seen some portions of the collected unpublished data (so I've been told), which based on my Quantative Analysis background in Statistics is suggesting something unique.
When one is effectively being told that 'such and such' data does not exist, while one is looking at it on the computer screen... well I'm starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist

Anyway, my question still stands: Does anyone know of any DNA analysis of honey bees collected before 1900 in British or Irish Museums (or private collections)?

 

[Finman]

Anyway, my question still stands: Does anyone know of any DNA analysis of honey bees collected before 1900 in British or Irish Museums (or private collections)?

*What would be the purpose of such reseach?
*When you get the DNA results into your hands, how are you going to read them?
*What is the theory or hypotesis in your research, against which you read the raw data?
*Are you able to read the data, and are you comparing it to somewhere?
* How much you are going to spend money to the research?

 

[Apiarist]

Answers / responses in Italics

*What would be the purpose of such reseach?
To identify new sub-species or lower taxons.

*When you get the DNA results into your hands, how are you going to read them?
There is modern software available to assist in that, and hungry researchers more than willing to analysis it.

*What is the theory or hypotesis in your research, against which you read the raw data?
The theory is that there may be genotypes that have survived in a DNA identifiable form in remote areas of the British Isles, when compared to the larger known populations of Apis mellifera already genetically documented.

*Are you able to read the data, and are you comparing it to somewhere?
I can make a good attempt to read it, but there are others much more capable which can do so, I've already received offers along this line.

* How much you are going to spend money to the research?
From what I have been told from two sources, money can be found for this (if needed) and the costs have recently come down a LOT for this type of analysis.

I am hoping that the research already exists, surely someone would have thought of doing it? But maybe it hasn't been published on the usual online academic web pages.

 

[Finman]

Answers / responses in Italics



I am hoping that the research already exists, surely someone would have thought of doing it? But maybe it hasn't been published on the usual online academic web pages.

Surely you can do it, if you get enough money.

The research must have some purpose, otherwise the researcher cannot know, what he is doing. And how much he needs material.

Every research needs a plan and hypotesis. Methods are arranged so that it reveals the problem.

I wonder, what problems you would reveale, if somebody gives money to you.

I think that your asumption is far from truth, that bees arrived to Brotish isles 9000 years ago.

 

[nerak99]

What does “reviele” mean?

 

[nerak99]

Sorry, did not notice that was such an old thread

 

[Finman]

What does “reviele” mean?

My purpose was to say reveal.

 

[Apiarist]

Sorry, did not notice that was such an old thread

? The Post to which you were replying to was less than 24hrs old, and this Thread is less than 48hrs old ?