Natural England article on 'Non/Native' bees?

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quoting numbers of members in national organisations does not demonstrate a majority of anything as we have seen with the BBKA, the opinions of the executive seldom reflects the opinion of the membership. And as probably a great numbers of beekeepers aren't even members, it proves nothing

I think the coming together of a number of national bee keeping organisations that otherwise do not necessarily get on and in fact two of which emerged from a fractious split does show that this has the grass roots support of beekeepers here in Ireland.

Look I would like to extend an olive branch here - I am sure we have more in common than not. Just on this topic we don't agree.
 
As someone wiser than I said to me earlier, and I hope they don't mind me quoting them

'If I Iived in Italy I would keep Ligustica, if I lived in Slovenia I would keep Carnica and I would be just as passionate."

There are plenty of AMM strains that are docile and productive - a good commercial beekeeper in Ireland can average 30kg of honey per hive with minimal inputs. And not to stick my head in the sand I know there are amm genetics that can do much better given the right management.


I Live in England.
The English native bee is a mongrel.
I don't want mongrels.

There you go again, trying to tell me what to keep.
I seriously object to that. Please stop.

(and 30KG of honey is what I average with minimal inputs in a good year. Less in bad ones. )
 
Fascinating research, I knew I had read something like this a couple of years ago and have been trying to find it since I heard a webinar about further research which supported it!

.... but you do know the consequences of this research (and the as yet unpublished research I viewed in a webinar)?

It is that the AMM is not threatened by imports.
Let that sink in.
These two pieces of Research have just invalidated the argument for a bee importation ban for the purposes of protecting AMM from hybridization:
That's good news, isn't it?
 
Shows a lot of potential in the native genetics you have!

Curly, who keeps bees in England, was actually referring to a nuc he brought in from Wales.

However you look at it he's trying to improve his stock by bringing in other genes whether it's from 70 miles down the road or from the island of Ireland. Full support from me on that one, it's nice that he's been able to make the decision, quite legally, to centre his operation around Amm irrespective of what his neighbours think.

Edit : before I ignite another riot....

My point is that things seem to work best when people keep the type of bees that they love.

Of course it's important to maintain the various subspecies for the future but the best way to do that is for people like mbc, Jon Getty and Pete Little before he died to try and improve the Amm (or whatever they have), let them stand on their own merit. Then, and only then, will people rush to use them. This has got to be better than forcing someone's hand.
 
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Regardless of any counter argument, reason or looking at “the other side of the coin” some are incapable of balance in their perceptions and nothing will change their mind.
The evolutionary process has no direction other than survival, for bees to remain “native”, I would have thought it depends on the function of all genes and on how they interact with each other. It will be an interesting experiment to observe the extent to which inbreeding affects the new “irish bee” if the law is indeed changed.
Andrew Abrahams doesn't seem to have lost any sex alleles (the clearest measure of inbreeding suppression in bees)in his bees since they started being sampled for such things, that's with only a hundred or so colonies stuck on colonsay and oransay over a few decades, and he describes his bees as the most poked about bees by scientists in the world.
I think inbreeding only really has an impact with bees when they're II'd, otherwise their outmating mechanisms and polyandry are incredibly effective at avoiding inbreeding.
 
Only if these associations consist of the vast majority of beekeepers and they all - not just a few opinionated ones at the top voted on it.
Consensus is not exactly concrete evidence
 
I Live in England.
The English native bee is a mongrel.
I don't want mongrels.

There you go again, trying to tell me what to keep.
I seriously object to that. Please stop.

(and 30KG of honey is what I average with minimal inputs in a good year. Less in bad ones. )
This is overly aggressive nonsense, unless I've missed it at no point is Lislarybees trying to tell beekeepers in England or Wales what to keep.
 
Only if these associations consist of the vast majority of beekeepers and they all - not just a few opinionated ones at the top voted on it.
Consensus is not exactly concrete evidence
A bit much to expect him to confirm by personal correspondence with each beekeeper imho
 
This is overly aggressive nonsense, unless I've missed it at no point is Lislarybees trying to tell beekeepers in England or Wales what to keep.
But he's certainly trying to tell beekeepers in Ireland what bees to keep.
 
Of course it's important to maintain the various subspecies for the future but the best way to do that is for people like mbc, Jon Getty and Pete Little before he died to try and improve the Amm (or whatever they have), let them stand on their own merit. Then, and only then, will people rush to use them. This has got to be better than forcing someone's hand.
I had numerous phone conversations with Pete about his Amm, it was very interesting. They worked the same way as their Buckfast, no veil, gloves. He had some French queens too but they were'different', last thing he told me was the resistance was crumbling :)
Ceri has sweet natured bees and Jon's are similarly gentle.
Unless people are made aware of this, we will forever hear those novice beekeepers who bought their first nuc last year, telling other new beekeepers that "black bees are nasty bees".
I've encouraged other beekeepers to try them and assess their behaviour for themselves. I've yet to have a negative report, in fact, most can't believe how calm they are.

The difficulty is getting that message across.
 
I had numerous phone conversations with Pete about his Amm, it was very interesting. They worked the same way as their Buckfast, no veil, gloves. He had some French queens too but they were'different', last thing he told me was the resistance was crumbling :)
Ceri has sweet natured bees and Jon's are similarly gentle.
Unless people are made aware of this, we will forever hear those novice beekeepers who bought their first nuc last year, telling other new beekeepers that "black bees are nasty bees".
I've encouraged other beekeepers to try them and assess their behaviour for themselves. I've yet to have a negative report, in fact, most can't believe how calm they are.

The difficulty is getting that message across.
:iagree: completely agree with what your saying swarm, if you choose where your getting your black bees from and preferably those that have been improving them for a while your not going to get aggressive or defensive behaviour because by an large the said breeder is on the ball and producing good quality stock.
I would rather buy stock from folk like this.
I have some of @mbc queen's which have superseded 2019 and still have all the qualities I desire, I hope one day I can rear stock as such, but only from being rigorous and selecting will I ever get there.
 
Andrew Abrahams doesn't seem to have lost any sex alleles (the clearest measure of inbreeding suppression in bees)in his bees since they started being sampled for such things, that's with only a hundred or so colonies stuck on colonsay and oransay over a few decades, and he describes his bees as the most poked about bees by scientists in the world.
I think inbreeding only really has an impact with bees when they're II'd, otherwise their outmating mechanisms and polyandry are incredibly effective at avoiding inbreeding.
Yes, Colonsay bees have been “isolated” for a fair amount of time and were already a pretty stable “closed” population. I should have thought predicting the susceptibility of specific populations to inbreeding depression would be rather difficult owing to the large element of chance involved with inbreeding depression. Perhaps slow rates of “inbreeding” or restricted breeding over a long period of time has the potential to reduce inbreeding depression. Ireland's bees will have been exposed to significantly more influences than Colonsay's ever before it stops importation.

There is some evidence that the genetic diversity that the polyandrous queen creates, benefits the colony by increasing worker productivity amongst other things.

You might find this Honey Bee Colonies Headed by Hyperpolyandrous Queens Have Improved Brood Rearing Efficiency and Lower Infestation Rates of Parasitic Varroa Mites interesting even though its related to varroa.
 
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I had numerous phone conversations with Pete about his Amm, it was very interesting. They worked the same way as their Buckfast, no veil, gloves. He had some French queens too but they were'different', last thing he told me was the resistance was crumbling :)
Ceri has sweet natured bees and Jon's are similarly gentle.
Unless people are made aware of this, we will forever hear those novice beekeepers who bought their first nuc last year, telling other new beekeepers that "black bees are nasty bees".
I've encouraged other beekeepers to try them and assess their behaviour for themselves. I've yet to have a negative report, in fact, most can't believe how calm they are.

The difficulty is getting that message across.
I have one hive of Jon Getty bees and they are very good natured and long suffering. I have yet to receive a sting or any sign of aggression from them. Given half decent forage they will produce a decent enough (for me) return in honey. This year (year 1) that hive produced 20kg surplus on rubbish forage in frankly not good weather, and they did that pretty much in the one month (July) of decent weather.
 
You are entitled to that opinion of course but maybe you should come over to Ireland and visit some breeders of these 'hybrids' you are talking about. I am sure you will have a great time and go home with a better understanding of what so many are trying to protect.
I have no doubt that the local bee breeders in Ireland can produce good tempered bees. My point was that the source material is not genetically pure in the first place. it is not a true breed and hasn't been for many decades / centuries because of previous importation. Near native is not native, and i see no scientific evidence that a distinctive indigenous bee species survives in Ireland in a genetically pure form.
Protect the local bees by all means, but they are hybrids. Can you point me in the direction of data that defines and demonstrates what 100% Irish AMMs is?
 
:iagree: completely agree with what your saying swarm, if you choose where your getting your black bees from and preferably those that have been improving them for a while your not going to get aggressive or defensive behaviour because by an large the said breeder is on the ball and producing good quality stock.
I would rather buy stock from folk like this.
I have some of @mbc queen's which have superseded 2019 and still have all the qualities I desire, I hope one day I can rear stock as such, but only from being rigorous and selecting will I ever get there.
I have two of Ceri’s queens. I’m really looking forward to working with them too but I’m sure he doesn’t sell them as Amm. You can have great bees that are not Amm
 
I have one hive of Jon Getty bees and they are very good natured and long suffering.
I wish. I’ve tried four times and each time the bees let the new queen lay then nobbled her and raised their own. The daughters were ok but that’s not what I’d been after. Hey ho. Can’t win them all
 
Another problem is the fact that positive posts are jumped on with petty negativity.
If you mean me then I think my comment a valid point. I’d have said the same about any other grey or orange. There are a heck of a lot of people selling black bees as Amm just as there are those selling Buckfast hybrids that turn out awful.
 

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