Natural England article on 'Non/Native' bees?

[Mint Bee]

This bill will put into law the wishes of the vast majority of beekeepers who do not want to see the extinction through hybridisation of our native honey bee, which is a valuable part of our natural heritage and biodiversity

I think that horse has long bolted. I've yet to see any convincing evidence (and by that I mean published in a decent peer reviewed journal) that there are any 100% genetically pure black bees left in Britain or Ireland. Which means all that is happening is that you are breeding hybrids. To what extent they are hybridised you can argue the toss based on your favourite molecular genetic analysis you prefer to quote, but still a hybrid or mongrel if you prefer.

even with selective breeding to create a breed standard that looks and behaves like whatever a black bee is suppose to do (whatever that is) it will still have genetic material that doesn't exist in the original sub species. as one forumite found out when some 'orange' bees showed higher black bee DNA than some black ones he owned, phenotype is a piss poor indicator of genetic purity and breeding.

if it makes you and your majority of Irish beekeepers happy to keep and maintain hybrids, feel free to fill your boots. If the Seanad is anything like the UK parliament, there is no chance of anything being approved, because they don't really care about bees and it would cost money to implement.
Three other potential issues, firstly the current membership of the EU and introducing restrictive practices; secondly the law will only apply to south of the boarder beekeepers and finally the Irish land boarder is traditionally as leaky as a colander; back to the earlier comment about a big bee proof net

 

[madasafish]

You can take it any way you want - I can't force my beliefs on anyone but I can make clear arguments in support of keeping your native honey bee.

And in general what I am trying to do is make sure that casual readers/new beekeepers of this forum don't get mislead by some of the clearly anti Amm sentiment from some of the contributors on here.

I am not anti AMM.
Just prefer strains of bees which are docile (easier to handle ) and more productive.

 

[Wilco]

How can I force my beliefs on anyone through a forum? I am sharing my beliefs sure. It is up to others to take from those contributions what they will.

Doesn't matter what topic/hobby/industry this refers to, and it doesn't mean the beliefs are right or wrong, but anyone pushing for a change in the law to suit their own views is literally forcing their beliefs on others...

 

[Apiarist]

Although from studies that I have read there seems to be some limiting factors to the level of introgression that occurs.

Hi Lislarybees
can you give us Links to those Studies that you have read, I would be very interested in reading what these "limiting factors" are? Our knowledge of what happens between when the queen leaves and returns to the hive (mating nuc) is poor.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Apiarist]

Can I ask one thing Just for clarity. What percentage of beekeepers are represented by “Major” beekeeping associations do you think ? Because here in the U.K. I might hazard that is very low.

At the last Convention here in N. Ireland I spoke to a bee inspector (who was very experienced, knowledgeable, and VERY well thought of) I asked him casually how many beekeepers they thought were NOT registered through an Association, at the time UBKA had about 850 signed up members, I was told there was about another 750 beekeepers in NI that were NOT signed up, meaning we have about 1600 beeks here

 

[Murox]

My native mongrels suit me just fine.

so do mine, I've even got a a hive full of Irish genes too.

 

[Murox]

I am not anti AMM.
Just prefer strains of bees which are docile (easier to handle ) and more productive.

Same here.

 

[Lislarybees]

Hi Lislarybees
can you give us Links to those Studies that you have read, I would be very interested in reading what these "limiting factors" are? Our knowledge of what happens between when the queen leaves and returns to the hive (mating nuc) is poor.
Thanks in advance.

Hi Apiarist, this is the study Partial reproductive isolation between European subspecies of honey bees - Apidologie

I think - and this is only interpreting anecdotal evidence - that this self selection can be seen in Ireland and the UK. If it wasn't the case then things would be far more mixed in Ireland already and the UK would have even less Amm in the background genetics.

 

[Lislarybees]

At the last Convention here in N. Ireland I spoke to a bee inspector (who was very experienced, knowledgeable, and VERY well thought of) I asked him casually how many beekeepers they thought were NOT registered through an Association, at the time UBKA had about 850 signed up members, I was told there was about another 750 beekeepers in NI that were NOT signed up, meaning we have about 1600 beeks here

For sure. I know lots of beekeepers that aren't members of any association. What I would say is that it is a minor miracle that all these bee keeping organisations came together in a common cause. I think that alone shows that there is grass roots support for this initiative.

 

[Erichalfbee]

For sure. I know lots of beekeepers that aren't members of any association. What I would say is that it is a minor miracle that all these bee keeping organisations came together in a common cause. I think that alone shows that there is grass roots support for this initiative.

Have you read this post?
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/amm-imports.51935/#post-800529

 

[Lislarybees]

I am not anti AMM.
Just prefer strains of bees which are docile (easier to handle ) and more productive.

As someone wiser than I said to me earlier, and I hope they don't mind me quoting them

'If I Iived in Italy I would keep Ligustica, if I lived in Slovenia I would keep Carnica and I would be just as passionate."

There are plenty of AMM strains that are docile and productive - a good commercial beekeeper in Ireland can average 30kg of honey per hive with minimal inputs. And not to stick my head in the sand I know there are amm genetics that can do much better given the right management.

 

[Lislarybees]

Have you read this post?
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/amm-imports.51935/#post-800529

Yes - I have read this thread. Some very unfortunate opinions expressed throughout - in my opinion. What do you think ITLD is going to say? That nobody in Ireland wanted his bees? Should a few commercial beekeepers opinions trump the majority?

 

[Lislarybees]

Have you read this post?
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/amm-imports.51935/#post-800529

What I took from the comments was a general mocking of Irish efforts to conserve our native bee. And that we would have been lucky to have ITLD bring his bees over here.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Should a few commercial beekeepers opinions trump the majority?

You've already failed to prove they are in the majority

 

[Curly green finger's]

As someone wiser than I said to me earlier, and I hope they don't mind me quoting them

'If I Iived in Italy I would keep Ligustica, if I lived in Slovenia I would keep Carnica and I would be just as passionate."

There are plenty of AMM strains that are docile and productive - a good commercial beekeeper in Ireland can average 30kg of honey per hive with minimal inputs. And not to stick my head in the sand I know there are amm genetics that can do much better given the right management.

That's interesting my Welsh Amm types averaged just over a 112lbs this season from nucleus, I will admit they had the forage from April to October but still.
They are docile enough.
Would it necessarily be not just the strain but forage and weather?

 

[Lislarybees]

I think that horse has long bolted. I've yet to see any convincing evidence (and by that I mean published in a decent peer reviewed journal) that there are any 100% genetically pure black bees left in Britain or Ireland. Which means all that is happening is that you are breeding hybrids. To what extent they are hybridised you can argue the toss based on your favourite molecular genetic analysis you prefer to quote, but still a hybrid or mongrel if you prefer.

even with selective breeding to create a breed standard that looks and behaves like whatever a black bee is suppose to do (whatever that is) it will still have genetic material that doesn't exist in the original sub species. as one forumite found out when some 'orange' bees showed higher black bee DNA than some black ones he owned, phenotype is a piss poor indicator of genetic purity and breeding.

if it makes you and your majority of Irish beekeepers happy to keep and maintain hybrids, feel free to fill your boots. If the Seanad is anything like the UK parliament, there is no chance of anything being approved, because they don't really care about bees and it would cost money to implement.
Three other potential issues, firstly the current membership of the EU and introducing restrictive practices; secondly the law will only apply to south of the boarder beekeepers and finally the Irish land boarder is traditionally as leaky as a colander; back to the earlier comment about a big bee proof net

You are entitled to that opinion of course but maybe you should come over to Ireland and visit some breeders of these 'hybrids' you are talking about. I am sure you will have a great time and go home with a better understanding of what so many are trying to protect.

 

[Lislarybees]

That's interesting my Welsh Amm types averaged just over a 112lbs this season from nucleus, I will admit they had the forage from April to October but still.
They are docile enough.

That is a great return from a nuc. I think there were many beekeepers here who would have averaged much more than 30 kgs this year - it was an amazing year for honey.

Shows a lot of potential in the native genetics you have!

The Beekeeping Research Centre at Clonroche, Co. Wexford kept detailed records over here that show that between 1966 and 1977 they averaged 31.7 kgs of honey per hive.

A commercial Irish beekeeper based up in County Louth recently posted his averages between 2010 and 2018 and it was 32kg per hive.

Interesting how similar those averages remained 40 years later.

 

[Lislarybees]

You've already failed to prove they are in the majority

Do tell how quoting official government statistics failed to prove my case?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do tell how quoting official government statistics failed to prove my case?

quoting numbers of members in national organisations does not demonstrate a majority of anything as we have seen with the BBKA, the opinions of the executive seldom reflects the opinion of the membership. And as probably a great numbers of beekeepers aren't even members, it proves nothing

 

[Curly green finger's]

That is a great return from a nuc. I think there were many beekeepers here who would have averaged much more than 30 kgs this year - it was an amazing year for honey.

Shows a lot of potential in the native genetics you have!

The Beekeeping Research Centre at Clonroche, Co. Wexford kept detailed records over here that show that between 1966 and 1977 they averaged 31.7 kgs of honey per hive.

A commercial Irish beekeeper based up in County Louth recently posted his averages between 2010 and 2018 and it was 32kg per hive.

Interesting how similar those averages remained 40 years later.

@mbc genetics not mine