Natural England article on 'Non/Native' bees?

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Lislarybees 

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does yours?
Absolutely - if this was any other animal/insect/plant native to the UK or Ireland that was under threat from an invasive competitor - people would not spend hours trying to denigrate or create false histories to justify its extermination
 
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Murox 

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.............................. Finland as Finman explained in a post there was historically no naturally occurring honey bee population. For bee keepers then the choice is much easier. Keep whatever bee suits your needs. For regions though where there is/was a native subspecies of honeybee I believe that is the bee that should be kept. And for the UK it would be possible to achieve within a relatively short time if imports were stopped. In Ireland it is what the majority of bee keepers are aiming for but a small minority make that very difficult....................
Keeping whatever bee suits your needs seems to be what the majority are doing at the moment. Perhaps a question to ask is "do the majority of beekeepers in the UK, and indeed Ireland, really share your beliefs?" You suggest stopping imports, that would require more than a change of belief/choice, perhaps a change in law.
 

Lislarybees 

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Keeping whatever bee suits your needs seems to be what the majority are doing at the moment. Perhaps a question to ask is "do the majority of beekeepers in the UK, and indeed Ireland, really share your beliefs?" You suggest stopping imports, that would require more than a change of belief/choice, perhaps a change in law.
As I said in my post the majority of beekeepers in Ireland do share my beliefs and there are a small minority that don't. All the main bee keeping organisations in Ireland have called for a ban on the importation of bees and there has recently been a bill introduced to our Seanad (similar to the house of lords) to effect that.

"The Native Irish Honey Bee Society (NIHBS) is delighted to advise that Senator -- will this week be bringing a bill to the Seanad regarding the ‘Protection of the Native Irish Honey Bee Bill 2021’. This Act will ban the importation of non-native honey bees with the aim of reducing the threat to and adverse impact upon biodiversity and the ecosystem arising from the introgression/crossing/cross-breeding of the native Irish Honey Bee, Apis mellifera mellifera, due to the importation of non-native species or sub-species of and/or strains derived from Apis mellifera. This bill will put into law the wishes of the vast majority of beekeepers who do not want to see the extinction through hybridisation of our native honey bee, which is a valuable part of our natural heritage and biodiversity. We trust that our legislators will now ensure that there will be a legal means of protecting and conserving this precious honey bee, before it is too late. All the major beekeeping organisations in Ireland have already signed up to a Statement Against Imports of non-native honey bees."

What I don't understand is why so many beekeepers in the UK (if this forum is a reflection of anything) don't care about this issue?

I don't think anyone on here would argue that Amm is not the native honey bee subspecies of Northern Europe?

Would anyone argue that is has not been driven to near extinction across much of it's former range?

So do people think this is a good or a bad thing?
 
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Lislarybees 

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I keep what bees I want.
And I really don't take kindly to someone trying to impose their beliefs on me.
You can take it any way you want - I can't force my beliefs on anyone but I can make clear arguments in support of keeping your native honey bee.

And in general what I am trying to do is make sure that casual readers/new beekeepers of this forum don't get mislead by some of the clearly anti Amm sentiment from some of the contributors on here.
 
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jenkinsbrynmair 

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the majority of beekeepers in Ireland do share my beliefs
Do they? or is that just what it suits you to believe - are there any independent statistics to prove this?

What I don't understand is why so many beekeepers in the UK (if this forum is a reflection of anything) don't care about this issue?
Maybe because they are not all blinkered and believe there is scope for all beekeepers to keep whichever subspecies they desire.
Would anyone argue that is has not been driven to near extinction across much of it's former range?
Plenty would - in fact, the first thing many AMM enthusiasts point out is that the black bee seems to be still going strong even without help from beekeepers.
 
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Lislarybees 

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Do they? or is that just what it suits you to believe - are there any independent statistics to prove this?


Maybe because they are not all blinkered and believe there is scope for all beekeepers to keep whichever subspecies they desire.

Plenty would - in fact, the first thing many AMM enthusiasts point out is that the black bee seems to be still going strong even without help from beekeepers.
I will repeat - every major beekeeping organisation in Ireland backs the ban on the importation of non native bees. Pretty clear I would think.

Blinkered because they want to conserve their native honey bee sub-species? Ok I will settle for being blinkered then.

Amm in its pure/near pure form is only going strong where there has been a lot of on going hard work by passionate groups and individuals. Is there strong background Amm genetics in the UK - studies seem to suggest so which is great news. It means that with some work you could have a strong stable population of British Black Bees.
 
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Erichalfbee 

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I will repeat - every major beekeeping organisation in Ireland backs the ban on the importation of non native bees. Pretty clear I would think.

Blinkered because they want to conserve their native honey bee sub-species? Ok I will settle for being blinkered then.

Amm in its pure/near pure form is only going strong where there has been a lot of on going hard work by passionate groups and individuals. Is there strong background Amm genetics in the UK - studies seem to suggest so which is great news. It means that with some work you could have a strong stable population of British Black Bees.
Can I ask one thing Just for clarity. What percentage of beekeepers are represented by “Major” beekeeping associations do you think ? Because here in the U.K. I might hazard that is very low.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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Really? you have been on here long enough and read the posts
yes, and most of the
Really? you have been on here long enough and read the posts
yes - and the only time I see sentiments 'Anti' a certain strain are from people like you, you are the one who wants to ban all varieties of bee apart from AMM
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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How can I force my beliefs on anyone through a forum? I am sharing my beliefs sure.
You have stated on more than one occasion that you want to ban any bee that doesn't suit your 'beliefs' to me that means forcing your 'beliefs' on others, whether they like it or not.
 

Lislarybees 

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Can I ask one thing Just for clarity. What percentage of beekeepers are represented by “Major” beekeeping associations do you think ? Because here in the U.K. I might hazard that is very low.
"There are 4,462 beekeepers in Ireland in 2019 and 27,040 bee colonies* (full hives and nucleus hives**). Though there are some commercial beekeepers with 100+ hives, the vast majority of beekeepers in Ireland are hobbyists, the median average number of hives per beekeeper being 3 full hives."
Beekeepers Census 2019
https://assets.gov.ie


This would just be for the south of Ireland.
FIBKA - the largest beekeeping organisation has 3000 members
IBA - has 1200 members

UBKA - has 1200 members in Northern Ireland.

There are definitely people keeping bees that are not members of any of these organisations.
 

Lislarybees 

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yes, and most of the

yes - and the only time I see sentiments 'Anti' a certain strain are from people like you, you are the one who wants to ban all varieties of bee apart from AMM
Look we clearly won't agree on this subject. I have set out my arguments and they will hopefully inform those looking to make decisions about what kind of bee they want to keep going forward.

You have set out yours - which seem to amount to "I want to keep whatever kind of bee I want - so there!"

People can make of that what they will.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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You have set out yours - which seem to amount to "I want to keep whatever kind of bee I want - so there!"
Unlike yours which is 'you will keep the type of bee I demand - so there'

I'll carry on with keeping my black bees because I want to not because anyone demands I conform to their narrow principles. I also respect the rights of others to enjoy their beekeeping as they see fit. Which seems to be the main difference here.
 

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Regardless of any counter argument, reason or looking at “the other side of the coin” some are incapable of balance in their perceptions and nothing will change their mind.
The evolutionary process has no direction other than survival, for bees to remain “native”, I would have thought it depends on the function of all genes and on how they interact with each other. It will be an interesting experiment to observe the extent to which inbreeding affects the new “irish bee” if the law is indeed changed.
 

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Regardless of any counter argument, reason or looking at “the other side of the coin” some are incapable of balance in their perceptions and nothing will change their mind.
The evolutionary process has no direction other than survival, for bees to remain “native”, I would have thought it depends on the function of all genes and on how they interact with each other. It will be an interesting experiment to observe the extent to which inbreeding affects the new “irish bee” if the law is indeed changed.
My native mongrels suit me just fine. :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
 

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