Irish bees under threat again

[bpmurray]

Ireland has a Buckfast and Carniolan Beekeeping group.
Not everyone in Ireland keeps Black Bees.

Your facts about Buckfast are straight out of the BIBBA propaganda machine.

I can't remember the precise numbers, but I believe over 80% of Irish beekeepers keep Amm. AFAIK, all commercial beekeepers keep Amm. Yes, there are these others, Buckfast mainly around Leitrim, and they're welcome to keep their bees there and it would be unethical to keep black bees in the glens there, just as it would be unethical to keep Buckfast in the Voluntary Conservation Areas.

 

[Apiarist]

I'm inclined to believe that Buckfast F2 aggression is a myth.

Whenever a beek tells me their "Buckfasts became aggressive" I always ask a few questions, firstly I learn they weren't Buckfasts, at best hybrids with the local bee (which is Amm's here), then I usually find the amount of Buckfast DNA is around 10% (usually the fourth+ generation after the original Buckfast Queen), when I explain this ... the bees are still called Buckfasts!

 

[Ian123]

“all commercial beekeepers keep Amm.”

Lol…………not according to the order book of some!

 

[Apiarist]

...there are these others, Buckfast mainly around Leitrim, and they're welcome to keep their bees there...

I have next to zero contact with beeks down south (so I have no knowledge pertaining to this claim), but I came across this Post on an online group based in Ireland,

"...I kept AMM bees for several years, but I now keep only Buckfast bees, all the bees adjacent to me are also Buckfast and the South Kerry Bee Breeders Group only have Buckfast Bees in their breeding apiary...."

Also I seem to recall it was recently mentioned to me that the number of Queens (non-Amm's) imported into the Rupublic of Ireland, since 2012 had increased by 12 fold (1200%), so the demand does seem to be there and increasing.

 

[Apiarist]

• Another problem is that Ireland is still free of DWV-B and DWV-C, both of which are common across the rest of Europe, including Malta, so importing bees is threatening all bees here.

Can you give us a Link to the Source for this claim, I'm guessing you're summarizing a research (survey) paper? Can you give me the name of it at least?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

there are these others, Buckfast mainly around Leitrim

and Galway
Sligo
Kerry etc.etc.etc.

 

[bpmurray]

and Galway
Sligo
Kerry etc.etc.etc.

Yes, Galway is one area where a beek I know has had to cull queens. Both Kerry and Galway are VCA's so it's sad that hobbyists think it's OK to do this.

 

[DeeJunFan]

I'm inclined to believe that Buckfast F2 aggression is a myth. It wouldn't surprise me if for every beek who claims to have had an aggressive F2 Buckfast, you'll find another who has had one that's been perfectly fine. I suspect there's a strong element of confirmation bias involved, and that should a colony headed by an F2 Buckfast queen become aggressive, many will just say "Oh, well, that's how Buckfast F2s are. I'd best get a new queen." without actually stopping to consider any other possible causes. It would hardly be the first time a beekeeping myth had become "true" by repetition, after all.

I wonder if anyone has actually designed and carried out a reliable study to determine the reality? Or even if it's actually possible to do so, if the F1 queen is open-mated and therefore carrying indeterminate genes in the first place?

James

I'm inclined to agree.

I've been keeping Buckfast bees, in Ireland and have 8 F3 queens mated this year. Only 1 of them has a temperament issue and that was there in the F2 along with a strong swarming tendancy. There are many Beeks in Ireland keeping buckfast and according to officials there are many being brought into Ireland.

I think the best solution all round would be to designate an area of Ireland as a protected zone somewhere DNA shows the highest pruity. Then let everyone else just get on with it. Is there any possibility even if there is a total ban on imports that we will see a "return" of a Pure black bee?

 

[bpmurray]

Can you give us a Link to the Source for this claim, I'm guessing you're summarizing a research (survey) paper? Can you give me the name of it at least?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213224422000451

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, Galway is one area where a beek I know has had to cull queens

maybe he needs to look at improving his stock

 

[Erichalfbee]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213224422000451

I couldn’t find anything specifically on Ireland.

 

[Into the lions den]

Sounds familiar: remember the long and acrimonious thread post-Brexit? Bee Equipment flew nucs into NI to get round the Brexit ban on imports direct into the UK.

Recall that Murray McGregor (ITLD here) of Denrosa proposed setting up a queen rearing unit over there, but that too came under fire and (I believe) came to naught.

Not exactly. I canvassed opinion from people about a request I got *FROM IRELAND*. In particular a beekeeper in Ireland of some substance who has a fair number of Jolanta line queens wanted us to set up a unit over there raising these bees from which they would head all their own colonies and produce nucleii for sale, and if there were surplus queens they too could be sold.

It was plainly a financially very marginal thing anyway, but the toxic infighting I got glimpse of was something unreal to behold.
Conclusion was that I have enough to do here without ending up being seen as stirring up a hornets nest to do some people a favour and having my time consumed by coping with that flak (the idea being pushed that Irish beekeepers are uniformly into the black bees was proven totally false..even correspondence on the matter from beekeepers in claimed to be totally black bee areas came on quite angry about the claim and from their colony numbers may actually be in the majority (colonies wise).

Just too toxic for words to go near. How the accusations of greed and malicious intent got thrown in (and the OP here was one of them) was SO frustrating and annoying (and was plainly intended to be) and utterly divorced from the marginal finances of such a project......when all we did was ask opinions...was quite beyond me. There are some pretty unpleasant characters out there.

However, this veers away from the original post.....there are MANY importers of queens in the UK using the Irish loophole. Many...and I DO MEAN *MANY*...Irish clients want bees that are NOT local Amm. I am sure the proportion entering Ireland via the loophole and then reaching the UK mainland is very high, possibly >90% move on via the trade mess of the protocol. Only maybe <10% stay in Ireland (either part) BMH was honest and open enough to pop his head up and say so (ditto the mooted project a couple years back that we did not NEED to canvass opinion on. Could have just done it.). You also have a number of local Irish clients brining in direct from Europe. I know. I have seen the bees sitting packed in Italy ready for sending.

Instead of rocketting the open people like Lawrence, look for the ones going through on the quiet. Its the vast majority.

The users of the loophole (which we do not plan to as it bypasses all the intended health checks on direct imports) have effectively torpedoed our trade as it gives then such a competitive advantage (day or two faster and no attrition rate from cage/worker changes) that we have actually decided to suspend the trade this year...despite our own mother queens being out there for early supply back in....so the queen and the drones she produces are actually locally RAISED genetics to here and proven achievers. Only bringing for our own early season use in 2023. Investigating a southern UK option going forward. Costs the customer 4 to 6 weeks however..so the demand for early queens...from UK AND Ireland...will remain very strong.

 

[Into the lions den]

I ca. AFAIK, all commercial beekeepers keep Amm.

12 of the 14 commercial beekeepers who got in touch (quite content to accept that may not be the majority as I have no idea how many true commercial beekeepers there are in Ireland) were quite clear on that topic...they *DONT* keep Amm. Several also stated they only said they did because of the trouble it caused them if they told the facts.. Several offered siting to host the mooted project.

SO SO glad I kept away.

Which side of the Irish divide do you believe? Decent Irish people I know on both sides took abuse...pretty storng abuse too.

You might also like to investigate the Malta imports.....almost (or possibly actually) all, come from Melita honeybees. I know the man personally and also many of his friends. I did business with him when, prior to SHB, he was located in the vicinity of Mt Etna in Sicily. His unit in Malta is tiny (in commercial terms and has met the Maltese equivalent of the Irish debate. Many of the queens supplied are not actually Maltese. He is both a beekeeper and a trader. A decent reliable supplier but *allegedly* buys in from all over and ships out of Malta.

 

[Ian123]

I do so look forward to Murray’s posts

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I do so look forward to Murray’s posts

At least we get truth and reality, not smears and fantasy

 

[Erichalfbee]

I do so look forward to Murray’s posts

So do I but maybe I shouldn’t say so. Oops.

 

[Beesnaturally]

There's a competent beekeeper up Hertfordshire way (he doesn't buy in bees or queens) and I asked him why his colonies were so productive and good-tempered. He put it down to regular queen selection, but was unaware that his virgins were pleasured by the drones of a very good local beefarmer who uses Buckfast at scale.

I think at least a numbers/distance/rate of replacement calculation has to be attempted before the probabilities can be evaluated. How many hives does the Herefordshire beekeeper have, and how does he manage them in terms of drone limiting, and how skilled and determined is he at locating queens with lots of his genetic content, and eliminating those less homely?

 

[bpmurray]

12 of the 14 commercial beekeepers who got in touch (quite content to accept that may not be the majority as I have no idea how many true commercial beekeepers there are in Ireland) were quite clear on that topic...they *DONT* keep Amm. Several also stated they only said they did because of the trouble it caused them if they told the facts.. Several offered siting to host the mooted project.

SO SO glad I kept away.

Which side of the Irish divide do you believe? Decent Irish people I know on both sides took abuse...pretty storng abuse too.

You might also like to investigate the Malta imports.....almost (or possibly actually) all, come from Melita honeybees. I know the man personally and also many of his friends. I did business with him when, prior to SHB, he was located in the vicinity of Mt Etna in Sicily. His unit in Malta is tiny (in commercial terms and has met the Maltese equivalent of the Irish debate. Many of the queens supplied are not actually Maltese. He is both a beekeeper and a trader. A decent reliable supplier but *allegedly* buys in from all over and ships out of Malta.

In 2022 there were 4 queens imported from Malta, according to DAFM,just to get this into perspective.

 

[Into the lions den]

Official figures have to be viewed with considerable suspicion...whether in Ireland or the UK. The figures will be correct enough insofar as they go....there is no official conspiracy going on, but they are only as good as the declarations by beekeepers/importers.

When I cited Malta however, I was talking about ALL of Ireland. Most of the loophole imports come, at least officially, through the north. Nobody will have ANY figures about how many then slip south.

Some airlines and freight agents even offer a service that means you never have to be involved...they do the Ireland/NI/UK bit for you. Legal? Yes. Right? IMO not.

A lot of bees from Italy coming by these channels.

 

[Apiarist]

In 2022 there were 4 queens imported from Malta, according to DAFM,just to get this into perspective.

Sorry to trouble you on this, I've just spent a while looking for published figures from Ireland on bee imports;

did you read that figure of 4 imports from Malta from a public source available online? If so can you give me a link to it? Please, thanks.