Irish bees under threat again

[Apiarist]

... I was talking about ALL of Ireland. Most of the loophole imports come, at least officially, through the north. Nobody will have ANY figures about how many then slip south.

Shortly after I started beekeeping I met a beek here in Northern Ireland, that had obtained a nuc from the South (of Ireland), their queen died a short while later and the Southern beek popped a spare (old) queen in a cage, and drove the 30 minutes across the border.... no paper work, etc.

I was surprised to hear the name of the southern beek as he was well known to be a very strong advocate of banning imports = the max. restrictions on bee movements across borders.

I would like to know what the numbers of queens moving across our border is, I think Murry is right in that it might surprised us!

 

[Apiarist]

I think the best solution all round would be to designate an area of Ireland as a protected zone somewhere DNA shows the highest pruity. Then let everyone else just get on with it. Is there any possibility even if there is a total ban on imports that we will see a "return" of a Pure black bee?

1. Ireland already has a very high genetic purity, therefore showing all these imports appear to be having no effect on the genetics of Amm's here in Ireland (based on 2017 research).
2. If beeks chose to keep Amm's and not import then all their bees are Amm's, with no signs of hybridization (based on 2005 research).
3. Based on a very small sample (genetic analysis performed on a peninsula where Amm, A.m.carnica and Buckfasts were all present), the Amm here in Ireland appear to not be mating with non-Amm bees;

- which means there is no need for everyone to get so emotional about all this!

As for the "total ban on imports" ... no one is actually proposing a ban on imports.... no they are not... I can hear you thinking, and again I say ... no they're not! The Amm enthusiasts are only proposing a ban on NON-Amm bees, which will still allow bees to be imported - which kind-of undermines the argument 'we need to ban imports to stop new diseases, etc. being imported'.

 

[fian]

Sorry to trouble you on this, I've just spent a while looking for published figures from Ireland on bee imports;

did you read that figure of 4 imports from Malta from a public source available online? If so can you give me a link to it? Please, thanks.

https://beemission.com/blogs/news/italian-bee-import-could-bring-a-sting-to-irish-bees.This link is not talking about importing into Ireland but as a sliding platform to introduce queens into the UK post Brexit.

 

[Erichalfbee]

https://beemission.com/blogs/news/italian-bee-import-could-bring-a-sting-to-irish-bees.This link is not talking about importing into Ireland but as a sliding platform to introduce queens into the UK post Brexit.

Link takes you here

 

[fian]

I have tried to copy, paste and open the link with Google and it does not give me a problem.

 

[fian]

I have tried to copy, paste and open the link with Google and it does not give me a problem.

Alternatively.
https://www.irishnews.com/news/nort...-plan-could-have-a-sting-in-the-tail-2262572/

 

[Apiarist]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213224422000451

That paper (which is very interesting, thank you) references a study performed in the UK (England and Wales), although Northern Ireland wasn't included, as part of the UK I think it can be assumed the same is happening here too. Also as (the Republic of) Ireland is not mentioned, but without any alternative evidence I think it is safe to say the same is likely happening across the island.

All this is academic, as if the more virulent strains of DWV are not already here they will eventually arrive - the only thing that could prevent that is a bee importation ban (which all beekeepers adhere to), and as I have said before NO ONE is proposing that.

 

[Nige.Coll]

It's always been the same with some groups.
You can import bees but they have to be AMM. AMM imports are excluded from the spread of pests/diseases.
Somehow imported AMM are actually native too??????
I was talking to a bee supplier in the UK, their biggest customer for European AMM queens is Ireland. Go figure that one out. Hundreds of them a year.
Gave up trying to work out the backward logic and hypocrisy of it and decided they were all mentally ill so leave them to it.
If they want to keep crap bees allegedly suited to a climate that no longer exists crack on and enjoy it. Just don't pee on my back and try to convince me it's raining.

 

[rook66]

It's always been the same with some groups.
You can import bees but they have to be AMM. AMM imports are excluded from the spread of pests/diseases.
Somehow imported AMM are actually native too??????
I was talking to a bee supplier in the UK, their biggest customer for European AMM queens is Ireland. Go figure that one out. Hundreds of them a year.
Gave up trying to work out the backward logic and hypocrisy of it and decided they were all mentally ill so leave them to it.
If they want to keep crap bees allegedly suited to a climate that no longer exists crack on and enjoy it. Just don't pee on my back and try to convince me it's raining.

The current "native" Irish bee was imported en mass from Holland at the turn of the last century (early 1900s) to replenish after the wipeout by IOW disease. That bee was chosen because they were so swarmy and would proliferate in the wild without intervention throughout the country.

 

[bpmurray]

Sorry to trouble you on this, I've just spent a while looking for published figures from Ireland on bee imports;

did you read that figure of 4 imports from Malta from a public source available online? If so can you give me a link to it? Please, thanks.

It was provided at a meeting with the department but it may be available publicly - apologies, that's tge best I can do

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

so just hearsay then

 

[DeeJunFan]

Official figures have to be viewed with considerable suspicion...whether in Ireland or the UK. The figures will be correct enough insofar as they go....there is no official conspiracy going on, but they are only as good as the declarations by beekeepers/importers.

When I cited Malta however, I was talking about ALL of Ireland. Most of the loophole imports come, at least officially, through the north. Nobody will have ANY figures about how many then slip south.

Some airlines and freight agents even offer a service that means you never have to be involved...they do the Ireland/NI/UK bit for you. Legal? Yes. Right? IMO not.

A lot of bees from Italy coming by these channels.

As far as im aware any Bees moving EU/NI/UK NI authorities should be notified. I know the Bee Inspectors in NI have a 100% inspection policy when it comes to imports from Italy into NI. Although you are 100% right there is no way to know how many go where.

 

[Apiarist]

As far as im aware any Bees moving EU/NI/UK NI authorities should be notified. I know the Bee Inspectors in NI have a 100% inspection policy when it comes to imports from Italy into NI. Although you are 100% right there is no way to know how many go where.

Yes, from memory you have to inform the local Bee Inspectors 24hrs before their arrival (at least that's how it was pre-brexit), but I would be surprised if "NI have a 100% inspection policy", I know they did not have that policy in England whenever 100's of package bees were being imported pre-brexit; I think they aimed to have a 50% inspection, and basically all I think it was, was taking a scraping from the floor of the box and looking for SHB poop. (there's a lot of I think's in this reply, as my discussions were with a Bee Inspector pre-brexit).

 

[bpmurray]

That paper (which is very interesting, thank you) references a study performed in the UK (England and Wales), although Northern Ireland wasn't included, as part of the UK I think it can be assumed the same is happening here too. Also as (the Republic of) Ireland is not mentioned, but without any alternative evidence I think it is safe to say the same is likely happening across the island.

All this is academic, as if the more virulent strains of DWV are not already here they will eventually arrive - the only thing that could prevent that is a bee importation ban (which all beekeepers adhere to), and as I have said before NO ONE is proposing that.

Apparently only the old-fashioned flavour of DWV has been found here. However research is starting in NUIG into this, so we'll have a more accurate picture sometime in the future.

 

[bpmurray]

Yes, from memory you have to inform the local Bee Inspectors 24hrs before their arrival (at least that's how it was pre-brexit), but I would be surprised if "NI have a 100% inspection policy", I know they did not have that policy in England whenever 100's of package bees were being imported pre-brexit; I think they aimed to have a 50% inspection, and basically all I think it was, was taking a scraping from the floor of the box and looking for SHB poop. (there's a lot of I think's in this reply, as my discussions were with a Bee Inspector pre-brexit).

That's the optimum solution. During that panic about all imports being slaughtered last year, three groups of nuc imports to NI happened. All but 20 of these were sent to GB. The first arrivals were checked. The second wasn't. The third was checked by APHA when it arrived in GB.

 

[bpmurray]

The current "native" Irish bee was imported en mass from Holland at the turn of the last century (early 1900s) to replenish after the wipeout by IOW disease. That bee was chosen because they were so swarmy and would proliferate in the wild without intervention throughout the country.

That's only part of the story. Br. Adam's famous "all the Amm are dead" claims have been refuted again & again, so some of the original dark bees in Britain & Ireland definitely did survive. As you point out, large numbers of Amm were imported from NL and from FR and these have left their mark in the genome of the bees here. If you look at Fig. 4 in Jack Hassett's paper you'll clearly see that the Irish population sits separate from the bees descended from the imports, and in Fig. 3C you can see that there are peaks unique to Irish bees. That paper actually also debunks the myth about Irish bees being inbred.

 

[Apiarist]

...last year, three groups of nuc imports to NI happened....

are you sure they were nucs, and not packages of bees? do you know how many individual nucs (or packages) were brought into NI.

 

[bpmurray]

are you sure they were nucs, and not packages of bees? do you know how many individual nucs (or packages) were brought into NI.

You may be correct, but I was told "nucs". There were either 500 altogether or 3 batches of 500 - I never got to the bottom of that!

 

[bpmurray]

so just hearsay then

Sort of, but the info was provided by the department as formal data.

 

[bpmurray]

“all commercial beekeepers keep Amm.”

Lol…………not according to the order book of some!

Actually you're right - I forgot about him. Yes, there is one commercial beek who supplies both Amm & Buckfast.