Irish bees under threat again

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm inclined to agree.

I've been keeping Buckfast bees, in Ireland and have 8 F3 queens mated this year. Only 1 of them has a temperament issue and that was there in the F2 along with a strong swarming tendancy. There are many Beeks in Ireland keeping buckfast and according to officials there are many being brought into Ireland.

I think the best solution all round would be to designate an area of Ireland as a protected zone somewhere DNA shows the highest pruity. Then let everyone else just get on with it. Is there any possibility even if there is a total ban on imports that we will see a "return" of a Pure black bee?
With that number I presume you're a hobbyist. As I say to all hobbyists, if you don't keep Amm you're directly attacking our environmental heritage. Commercial beekeepers may be motivated by an income, but a hobbyist isn't. Just for the record, I raised a couple of dozen Amm queens and our local association got close to 300 mated with loads more virgins. All of the virgins were given to whoever asked for them as were most of the mated queens. As for designated areas, here are some of the current conservation areas (the list is incomplete) There are also a whole bunch of other Voluntary Conservation Areas but the outdated map has been taken down, presumably to make way for an updated version so I can't give you a link to it. I presume you're in Sligo/Leitrim, North Kildare or parts of the Southwest where Buckfast are acceptable - you wouldn't be so unethical as to keep Buckfast in conservation areas, would you?
 
I'm in Northern Ireland not near any of those areas.

Every Commercial Beekeeper around me keeps buckfast. Beeks with between 200-500 hives. Some keep mixed some exclusively buckfast so even if i kept only AMM it wouldn't make a drop in the ocean.
 
Yes, from memory you have to inform the local Bee Inspectors 24hrs before their arrival (at least that's how it was pre-brexit), but I would be surprised if "NI have a 100% inspection policy", I know they did not have that policy in England whenever 100's of package bees were being imported pre-brexit; I think they aimed to have a 50% inspection, and basically all I think it was, was taking a scraping from the floor of the box and looking for SHB poop. (there's a lot of I think's in this reply, as my discussions were with a Bee Inspector pre-brexit).
According to Bee Inspector in NI 100% inspection rate from Italy is the current policy. As of about 3 months ago (possibly before but this was the conversation i had)
 
That's only part of the story. Br. Adam's famous "all the Amm are dead"
he never said that, I've only heard "Br. Adam said.." from members of Amm groups

claims have been refuted again & again,
Yes that's right, the documentary evidence that you would cite to prove the Amm were never extinct is... drum roll... Br. Adam's journal/breeding records (except from 1916/17 to early 1918/19), he also makes mention of bees being at the Abbey as early as the 1890's.

so some of the original dark bees in Britain & Ireland definitely did survive.
ahh, no, there's no evidence for that Amm haplotype surviving.

As you point out, large numbers of Amm were imported from NL and from FR and these have left their mark in the genome of the bees here. If you look at Fig. 4 in Jack Hassett's paper you'll clearly see that the Irish population sits separate from the bees descended from the imports,
yeees.... have a closer look at that Fig.4 were are the bees from "NL" .... it's the only 1 (hint) that's not listed.... let me copy and paste a paragraph for you,
"Whether the same levels of Dutch haplotypes will be present in a wider sample of non-managed colonies remains to be seen. But certainly, amongst the beekeepers in the NIHBS these are the predominant type of A. m. mellifera here."

and in Fig. 3C you can see that there are peaks unique to Irish bees.
This ones, complicated,
1st - Is this level of mutation high relatively speaking... unless you have other DNA studies comparing samples taken say near 100 years ago and compared to their descendants today, we don't know what level of mutations (through genetic drift) should be expected: There was a later study conducted throughout northern Europe that suggests this observation is not high.
2nd - Is this level of mutation (instead of being from genetic drift but) from hybridising with an original indigenous Amm bee... Dr. Hassett has since released additional genetic info. collected during the 2017 study in which he presents the possible discovery of the "Native Native bee" his wording not mine, descended from a lineage over 1000 years old from Ireland, as opposed to the 'continental native bees' (from memory he used a phrase similar to that)) throughout Ireland.

That paper actually also debunks the myth about Irish bees being inbred.
Never heard that one, but I have heard people express concern about a lack of genetic diversity... something about to few queens being used to rear virgins from.
 
That's only part of the story. Br. Adam's famous "all the Amm are dead" claims have been refuted again & again, so some of the original dark bees in Britain & Ireland definitely did survive. As you point out, large numbers of Amm were imported from NL and from FR and these have left their mark in the genome of the bees here. If you look at Fig. 4 in Jack Hassett's paper you'll clearly see that the Irish population sits separate from the bees descended from the imports, and in Fig. 3C you can see that there are peaks unique to Irish bees. That paper actually also debunks the myth about Irish bees being inbred.
I think that nobody said that they were inbred, but that hybridization with other races (type C) was very difficult since the queens were amm. maintain a strong predominance by amm males. In addition, it has also been found that the genetic variability of amm is much smaller than that of other breeds. The difference is that in the AMM there are many ecotypes (local adaptation) while in races (A, C, O) these differences are more genetically marked as they occurred more geologically long ago.
 
I think that nobody said that they were inbred, but that hybridization with other races (type C) was very difficult since the queens were amm. maintain a strong predominance by amm males. In addition, it has also been found that the genetic variability of amm is much smaller than that of other breeds. The difference is that in the AMM there are many ecotypes (local adaptation) while in races (A, C, O) these differences are more genetically marked as they occurred more geologically long ago.
Surely ecotypes would result in clearly identifiable DNA which I'm not aware of, I've heard of ecotypes, but could the Amm develop them as it is the most recent arrival into Europe, it's only been here for several thousand years, as opposed to the other subspecies which have been here for 100,000 plus years.
 
Surely ecotypes would result in clearly identifiable DNA which I'm not aware of, I've heard of ecotypes, but could the Amm develop them as it is the most recent arrival into Europe, it's only been here for several thousand years, as opposed to the other subspecies which have been here for 100,000 plus years.
There are four levels below the genre.
Species in our case Apis Mellifera.
Race or Lineage. Depending on the different groups, 5 lineages are distinguished (A, M, C O and Y).
Subspecies, am mellifera, am ligustica, etc.
Ecotype that are those less genetically marked local adaptations. When there are climatic differences between two areas (for example) Sicily and Milan, these will mark a slight behavior in the same AML subspecies. In fact this has already been observed in French bees with different origins, Landes (Aquitaine), Paris and Corsica.
It happens that the reproductive possibility below the species is always possible.
By the way, what lineage does buckfast fall into? C for being mainly a hybrid of Ligustica and Carniolan?
 
There are four levels below the genre.
Species in our case Apis Mellifera.
Race or Lineage. Depending on the different groups, 5 lineages are distinguished (A, M, C O and Y).
Subspecies, am mellifera, am ligustica, etc.
Ecotype that are those less genetically marked local adaptations. When there are climatic differences between two areas (for example) Sicily and Milan, these will mark a slight behavior in the same AML subspecies. In fact this has already been observed in French bees with different origins, Landes (Aquitaine), Paris and Corsica.
It happens that the reproductive possibility below the species is always possible.
By the way, what lineage does buckfast fall into? C for being mainly a hybrid of Ligustica and Carniolan?
Hi
Buckfasts have effectively no A. m. carnica DNA in them, well under 1% from memory, Br. Adam never included them in the breeding program (although he did test them), the two largest DNA components that the Buckfast breed has are 40% ligusta (Ligurian strain) and 35% mellifera (French strain), the testing was done in the 1990's, but I suspect the % of ligustica has increased at the expense of the mellifera due to the Buckfast breeders all out commitment to breeding in varroa resistance to their bees.

PS: Many keepers of Buckfasts also keep carnica's and hybrids of the two are popular, so that is how DNA testing can often result in amounts of carnica DNA in a descendant of a Buckfast queen.
 
I'm in Northern Ireland not near any of those areas.

Every Commercial Beekeeper around me keeps buckfast. Beeks with between 200-500 hives. Some keep mixed some exclusively buckfast so even if i kept only AMM it wouldn't make a drop in the ocean.
Im in wicklow and i can tell you that the greater majority of commercial beeks keep amm in the Republic.
 
Surely ecotypes would result in clearly identifiable DNA which I'm not aware of, I've heard of ecotypes, but could the Amm develop them as it is the most recent arrival into Europe, it's only been here for several thousand years, as opposed to the other subspecies which have been here for 100,000 plus years.
Eh?
 
Im in wicklow and i can tell you that the greater majority of commercial beeks keep amm in the Republic.
Interesting. That's ONE of the counties where I was assured this was the official line, but was actually untrue. Was even offered hosting there by a BUCKFAST keeper.

Oh what a tangled web....... Who do you actually believe? Its of no importance now as nothing is ever going to happen...but the picture seems so complex and emotionally inflamed.


Going back some 35 years or so I visited the Wicklow mountains...thought it could be a great area for some serious heather production. Was just musing whilst on holiday...so relax..it was NEVER a plan. Its just what beekeepers do when travelling. Thought the same about the Azores too...
 
Interesting. That's ONE of the counties where I was assured this was the official line, but was actually untrue. Was even offered hosting there by a BUCKFAST keeper.

Oh what a tangled web....... Who do you actually believe? Its of no importance now as nothing is ever going to happen...but the picture seems so complex and emotionally inflamed.


Going back some 35 years or so I visited the Wicklow mountains...thought it could be a great area for some serious heather production. Was just musing whilst on holiday...so relax..it was NEVER a plan. Its just what beekeepers do when travelling. Thought the same about the Azores too...

It was interesting listening to Panayotis, a professional beekeeper in Corfu. He rated heather honey and was pleased to tell us that he has hives on an island close to the coast of hot and sunny Corfu, which is covered in heather......the island is actually called Erikoussa..."Heather Island". He definitely doesn't use Amm. ;)
 
Going back some 35 years or so I visited the Wicklow mountains...thought it could be a great area for some serious heather production. Was just musing whilst on holiday...so relax..it was NEVER a plan. Its just what beekeepers do when travelling. Thought the same about the Azores too...
You get a holiday. What's one of those lol.
 
Interesting. That's ONE of the counties where I was assured this was the official line, but was actually untrue. Was even offered hosting there by a BUCKFAST keeper.
Suppose though he (or she) was the only one, and you just happened to find that one?

One swallow does not a summer make. I may have said this before.
 
You get a holiday. What's one of those lol.
Look how long ago it was! I have had 5 holidays in 41 years, none longer than a week. By the time it was over I only wanted to get back to the bees as soon as possible, in fact often before the OUTWARD journey was over.
 
Interesting. That's ONE of the counties where I was assured this was the official line, but was actually untrue. Was even offered hosting there by a BUCKFAST keeper.

Oh what a tangled web....... Who do you actually believe? Its of no importance now as nothing is ever going to happen...but the picture seems so complex and emotionally inflamed.


Going back some 35 years or so I visited the Wicklow mountains...thought it could be a great area for some serious heather production. Was just musing whilst on holiday...so relax..it was NEVER a plan. Its just what beekeepers do when travelling. Thought the same about the Azores too...
I have no reason to lie nothing to gain by doing so . I will admit that one out of 6 apiaries in wicklow last season was getting crossbreeding on some queens ...
I hope you enjoyed the wicklow mountains its a great place to holiday ..
 
It was interesting listening to Panayotis, a professional beekeeper in Corfu. He rated heather honey and was pleased to tell us that he has hives on an island close to the coast of hot and sunny Corfu, which is covered in heather......the island is actually called Erikoussa..."Heather Island". He definitely doesn't use Amm. ;)
Why would a commercial beekeeper keep swarmy bees??
 
I have no reason to lie nothing to gain by doing so . I will admit that one out of 6 apiaries in wicklow last season was getting crossbreeding on some queens ...
I hope you enjoyed the wicklow mountains its a great place to holiday ..
Sorry...was NOT suggesting you were lying. Apologies if you read it that way.

Just the whole can of worms I can across made you doubt everything. BOTH sides pointing fingers and emotive remarks and statements...don't know if it ever happened but TWO people accused the other side of being potential or threatened hive burners...and requests not to name names due to fear of reprisals. Not a 'climate' I would have any wish to enter.

Shame. My daughter has married into a family from Gorey and its a lovely area and nice people.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top