For those interested in AMM

[Poly Hive]

dano41.

When I started with bees in year three I think it was we had one hive of yellow bees though tawny might be the better colour to use and they hoitered on the doorstop unwilling to go and work when the black bees were busy. We very rapidly changed them out.

I did not run Amm and Carnies in tandem but at different times.

The good Amm didn't offer to swarm, were reasonably productive, made beautiful cappings with the proverbial air gap, and the really good ones could give three supers on the heather making for 6 supers over the season so aye not too dusty. They superceeded on the heather often, and the "quiet" ones were not too bad to work. The down side were the poor ones which were prone to chalk brood and Nosema, not to mention dying out.

The Carnies bred up in NZ are I believe from an Alpine strain and they are very quiet, very productive, my record is 230lbs of comb honey from one hive but they do love to swarm. Some may see that as a bonus especially if increase is wanted.

I hope that is what you wanted to know.

PH

 

[dano41]

Thanks for that Polyhive.What size of hive did you use for amm?Got amm from three different sources this year to try.The things I notice that are different since I last had them is a much better temperament,not as runny on the comb and a much more prolific queen.Can't be compared to a carnica or good buckfast in any of these aspects.

 

[SDM]

... comparisons which unfavourably compare Amm with other types.

In your own words...


They are BOTH !

They aren't mutually exclusive things, as I thought everyone knew.

But, "facts" they remain. You can sing songs of how wonderful Amm are in your own time.
I find it downright bizarre that you criticize someone for being factual just because you dont like the facts.

 

[Swarm]

And if you don't experience these 'facts' for yourself, you should just accept them because people on a forum tell you to.

 

[SDM]

And if you don't experience these 'facts' for yourself, you should just accept them because people on a forum tell you to.

Not at all, but.......
When they've been written about for centuries and are "the norm" for a huge majority in Beekeeping, you need to either question your observations, as at best they will be skewed by your personal Prejudice, or simply accept that no two colonies of bees are the same and your experiences are an exception.

 

[For want of a better word]

MBC? We had on a plate what at the time BIBBA said they wanted but when presented with it they ignored it.

Like I said reality was the issue I suspect.

PH

Associations of beekeepers are run on the power of its membership.

BBKA tell us NOT to import bees and yet promote a faction of so called master beekeeper instructors... that are anti Amm and blatantly pro Import of exotics.....with the comment that UK breeders could not possibly meet the demand of beekeepers who NEED to requeen every other year with imported exotics or they will cross out with local bees turn very nasty and not produce a crop of honey.
Seems a lot of them in this part of the country were complaining about such a poor honey crop they have not bothered to extract and fed it back to the bees.

Fortunately my Amm have done very well this last season.
Knocked the NZ loafers into as tin hat!

BUT the OP was about the discovery of a high percentage of honeybees in Ireland have been proven by DNA analyses to be Amm.

Seems to have become a soapbox for historic hysterics!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

BBKA tell us NOT to import bees and yet promote a faction of so called master beekeeper instructors... that are anti Amm and blatantly pro Import of exotics.....with the comment that UK breeders could not possibly meet the demand of beekeepers who NEED to requeen every other year with imported exotics or they will cross out with local bees turn very nasty and not produce a crop of honey.

This is absolute nonsense Icanhopit, as well you know.
Quite the opposite is true. The BBKA seagulls (that fly in overnight and sh*t on you) have a definite agenda to promote local mongrels. In fact, I was failed in the Bee Breeders pilot BECAUSE I breed Amc (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39682&page=2 post #12) here in Bedfordshire.
The agenda, based on the experience I have had, is that the BBKA are actively promoting mongrels over any race

 

[madasafish]

"We hope there will be some queens available in May, these will not be discounted. Full production is usually established during late June. The earlier dates are more prone to alteration. " Ged Marshall

"Our queens are available from mid may (weather permitting) till late september, but as demand for queens usually far exceeds supply, " Hivemaker

"First few queens should ship mid May, main production June onwards if the weather allows." Sipa

" The availability of queens will be from late May onwards. .." Yorkshire bees and honey

The above is taken from four major UK suppliers of UK raised Queens.No doubt other suppliers are the same.. Banning imports will mean - unless you have overwintered queens- you will be unable to requeen before June earliest due to a shortage of supply..

AMM queens?

"Orders for 2017 have now closed so any queens ordered now will be for June 2018 delivery, weather permitting. I post out queens in the order they have been paid for and I always check first to arrange a suitable posting date." Johnathan Getty.



So no help there...

Simple UK weather logistics means banning imports will either mean:
fewer bees due to restricted queen supplies
or very much higher costs to pay for overwintering queens (not cheap - see what ITLD said on the subject elsewhere on cost of British bee nucs)
and
probably a cutback in the large scale activities of commercial beekeepers who rely on imported queens. (UK queens WILL cost more see ITLD again)

 

[B+.]

Simple UK weather logistics means banning exports will either mean:
fewer bees due to restricted queen supplies
or very much higher costs to pay for overwintering queens (not cheap - see what ITLD said on the subject elsewhere on cost of British bee nucs)
and
probably a cutback in the large scale activities of commercial beekeepers who rely on imported queens. (UK queens WILL cost more see ITLD again)

I don't start rearing queens for open mating until the beginning of May. It's possible to do it before then, but, there has to be a plentiful supply of mature drones for them to mate with. Drones take 24 days plus ~2 weeks to mature, so, you're looking at ~40 days for the drones.
It's easy to see why open mated queens aren't available until June!
On the subject of reducing queen availability, what about the impact on farmers who depend on pollination from bees? It's all madness!

 

[Uncle Betty]

I find it downright bizarre that you criticize someone for being factual just because you dont like the facts.

I did no such thing. You obviously have not read the thread.

You now remind me of a Bertrand Russell definition -

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.

 

[madasafish]

I don't start rearing queens for open mating until the beginning of May. It's possible to do it before then, but, there has to be a plentiful supply of mature drones for them to mate with. Drones take 24 days plus ~2 weeks to mature, so, you're looking at ~40 days for the drones.
It's easy to see why open mated queens aren't available until June!
On the subject of reducing queen availability, what about the impact on farmers who depend on pollination from bees? It's all madness!

I am experimenting with overwintering bees in larger mini nucs with additional insulation. If successful - and it's a big IF - the economics mean I would want to sell them for over £50 per queen (SIPA charge £75) - but thus does mean the saving of a Q- colony in March - early May.. (And postage in the UK in March to April is a lottery and will kill queens left overnight in a cold van/depot/storage area on a frosty night).

But these kind of numbers basically mean overwintered queens - for hobby beekeepers would become effectively a luxury. Beekeeping in the UK is already an expensive hobby..this would make it more so and I suspect effectively suppress demand from those on limited budgets..

Overwintered queens for commercial beekeepers make no economic sense based on the costs of imported queens quoted by ITLD (Approx £10-£15 tops).

 

[Into the lions den]

BBKA tell us NOT to import bees and yet promote a faction of so called master beekeeper instructors... that are anti Amm and blatantly pro Import of exotics.....with the comment that UK breeders could not possibly meet the demand of beekeepers who NEED to requeen every other year with imported exotics or they will cross out with local bees turn very nasty and not produce a crop of honey.

Fed up of reading this. Swore not to re-enter this thread, but that is a lot of tosh...no matter how often its repeated or by what 'authoritative' figure. Much stems from the writings of almost a bee racist. Repeating the mantra that crosses are aggressive to prevent imports (not even necessarily from abroad btw, can be from other UK sources) does NOT make it true. Have around 50,000 hive seasons of experience says its false. It is ONLY trotted out by anti import believers.

I live in an area where, given 3 generations or so, everything reverts to black. As it does it gets less certain in temperament. People still say they are gentle. They don't know what they are talking about. Its a real stretch of the imagination for me that if you cross a gentle bee with one of uncertain behaviour you blame the gentle. Its bizarre and biased.

Don't get me wrong, I like the industry in marginal conditions the black stock can offer and incorporate some in our (relatively unscientific) breeding programme, but I am not a blinkered dreamer and know the limitations. Slightly more prone to disease? Yeah...like 1 EFB in 1000 of our non Amm stock, and 45 from 1200 or Amm type...plus a lot more chalk.

Fortunately my Amm have done very well this last season.
Knocked the NZ loafers into as tin hat!

You have been stating this for several seasons now. Why do you keep them?

I have asked before. I have an open mind and have a foot in both camps with a breeding and nuc production set up as well as working with two partners in Piemonte before the home bred comes on line later. Sell me a good queen or two in spring. I (or rather Jolanta) will graft from them. If they are that good then I am not so set in my ways not to acknowledge that and give credit where its due. I have stated that Norman Carreck no less related his test results on black bees and ONLY the Cornish were found to be worthwhile.

Trying to attach a picture. This is a nuc headed by a queen raised and open mated from (itself open mated) queen I bought from B+. The offspring are very promising indeed. I was prepared to give his stock a fair look and its the same for you. If they are as you say I WANT to try them as a heather bee.

 

[Uncle Betty]

"We hope there will be some queens available in May, these will not be discounted. Full production is usually established during late June. The earlier dates are more prone to alteration. " Ged Marshall

"Our queens are available from mid may (weather permitting) till late september, but as demand for queens usually far exceeds supply, " Hivemaker

"First few queens should ship mid May, main production June onwards if the weather allows." Sipa

" The availability of queens will be from late May onwards. .." Yorkshire bees and honey

The above is taken from four major UK suppliers of UK raised Queens.No doubt other suppliers are the same.. Banning imports will mean - unless you have overwintered queens- you will be unable to requeen before June earliest due to a shortage of supply..

AMM queens?

"Orders for 2017 have now closed so any queens ordered now will be for June 2018 delivery, weather permitting. I post out queens in the order they have been paid for and I always check first to arrange a suitable posting date." Johnathan Getty.



So no help there...

Simple UK weather logistics means banning imports will either mean:
fewer bees due to restricted queen supplies
or very much higher costs to pay for overwintering queens (not cheap - see what ITLD said on the subject elsewhere on cost of British bee nucs)
and
probably a cutback in the large scale activities of commercial beekeepers who rely on imported queens. (UK queens WILL cost more see ITLD again)

Or overwinter your own queens, which you already mentioned, but which doesn't here suit your doom and gloom conclusion ?

Or would that be too much like beekeeping ?

 

[madasafish]

Or overwinter your own queens, which you already mentioned, but which doesn't here suit your doom and gloom conclusion ?

Or would that be too much like beekeeping ?

Many beekeepers already do. Many don't. We are catering here for those who don't. And those who wish to requeen early - as commercial keepers appear to do.

And overwintering queens in a nuc costs a lot of money - more than the price of an overwintered queen..


"My gloom and doom" conclusion is based on facts which I took care to present to you as evidence. You appear to dislike any facts which disagree with your case. Not doing your cause any favours in my view. Especially when you criticise other beekeepers for not "proper" beekeeping..

 

[B+.]

This is a nuc headed by a queen raised and open mated from (itself open mated) queen I bought from B+. The offspring are very promising indeed. I was prepared to give his stock a fair look and its the same for you. If they are as you say I WANT to try them as a heather bee.

As I've said before, I don't usually talk about where my queens go unless the recipient "comes out" themselves. Consequently, I have kept quiet about the trial ITLD is undertaking. What I will say is that my queens find their way all around the country.
I will commend ITLD for his open mindedness and, if you want a good, objective test of your queens, you can rely on him (and his crew) to do it.

After losing one of the two queens I sent (due to something we still haven't got to the bottom of), he raised a number of daughters from the other one. He will take 30 daughters (open mated grand-daughters of 55-2-70-2016 - a pure Amc queen I am testing for VSH) which were mated to his drones into winter and test them on the heather next year. I look forward to hearing how they do.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Many beekeepers already do. Many don't. We are catering here for those who don't. And those who wish to requeen early - as commercial keepers appear to do.

And overwintering queens in a nuc costs a lot of money - more than the price of an overwintered queen..


"My gloom and doom" conclusion is based on facts which I took care to present to you as evidence. You appear to dislike any facts which disagree with your case. Not doing your cause any favours in my view. Especially when you criticise other beekeepers for not "proper" beekeeping..

I know 20-, to 50-colony beekeepers who don't import, and are happy with their beekeeping. They wouldn't do it at a financial loss, that's for sure.


.

 

[Fusion_power]

This thread reminds me that climate is what you expect and weather is what you get.

I think it is important to note that AMm have a few significant traits worth working on.

AMm will forage in weather when most other bees huddle inside.

They will mature late honey from heather (or goldenrod in my case) where most other races do a poor job.

They will forage further from the hive than most others.

They make beautiful white cappings.

A very small percentage of colonies express mite mauling traits. These can be selectively bred. Of all the traits present in AMm, this one should be looked at much closer.

All in all, they are a race of bees with a lot to contribute. It is too bad they have fallen so far out of favor that they survive in limited numbers.

 

[Beefriendly]

AMm will forage in weather when most other bees huddle inside.

They will mature late honey from heather (or goldenrod in my case) where most other races do a poor job.

They will forage further from the hive than most others.

They make beautiful white cappings.

Not sure I can agree on the first point Fusion, or at least with the Amm's I've kept. I didn't notice any difference in foraging activity in inclement weather between my Buckfast and my Amm's...but worth noting Buckfast have a high % of Amm incorporated into their breeding.
The only bees I've seen that have trouble capping heather honey were Italians and as they weren't mine bees I can only report what I observed.
Totally agree about the white cappings, best I've ever seen. Buckfast aren't far behind, but just not quite as white. If one wanted a reason to keep Amm's it would be if you were someone who wanted to showcase their cut comb or frames of capped honey.

 

[Finman]

AMm will forage in weather when most other bees huddle .

That is pure dreaming. How heck other races catch 2-3 honey yields from same pastures?

Flying in poor weather has never been a criteria in breeding. And all races fly in same weather. IT is not big difference.


IT is better that the hive forages only on good weather, and do not kill themselves in bad wearther . Nothing to catch in flowers in bad weather. Raspberry is exception..


.

 

[For want of a better word]

In reply to ILTD an in my own defence I only have only ever kept Cornish Amm* ( DNA tested) ILTD says" I have stated that Norman Carreck no less related his test results on black bees and ONLY the Cornish were found to be worthwhile"

[*Not exactly true as have a few colonies of Manx / open mated Cornish Amm.... in a place some 25+miles from my deep isolated valley]

Fortunately my Amm have done very well this last season.
Knocked the NZ loafers into as tin hat!

You have been stating this for several seasons now. Why do you keep them?

Because when everything is going right for them they ( NZ Aml) produce big colonies and a bumper crop of honey.... the Amm just keep going .... I can not keep bees in the hope of a bumper crop once in every five years or so.... and tip £1000 of invert into them each Autumn!
I do use them as surrogate bees for my Amm queen rearing... as the build up rapidly in the Spring if fed well and stock up the mating nucs ( strained of drones of course) I encourage the Amm breeder colonies to get on with drone rearing by giving them drone foundation and pollen + feed.
As B+ says... the drones are the important part of the equation!
If some of the large UK beefarmers and beebreeders started to rear queens for sale they could meet the demand... be it UK bred Amm , Amc. Aml or Am anything else, at least they could bring money into our economy, rather than lining Europeans pockets... is that no what Brexit was all about?

Yeghes da