For those interested in AMM

[Beefriendly]

Negative or unfavourable associations and comparisons attached to the keeping of Amm. Regular readers of the forum will recognise.

QED.

No, they are reports of factual comparisons, that suggest that Amm are less than perfect. It doesn't mean that people should shun them or belittle them, but they are not the best bee in the world. Everyone I know who has kept them and been able to compare their performance vs other strains would rate them higher than local mongrels but nowhere near the standards reached by decent Buckfast/Carniolans or Italian bees. As Polyhive has said they are a little disease prone, mine are martyrs to chalk brood and their daughters are as well. These are facts, not criticisms. Same as saying a mini will take longer to get to 70MPH than a lotus elan.
I've no issue with their preservation, I'm all for preservation of all bee lines as that is a very good thing, and is easily achievable by those able to perform II.
It's always puzzled me why many of the native bee preservation societies have never gone down that route of II and funded it by selling their pure Amm queens. The only ones doing this are Jon Getty in NI and the Galtee group.

 

[Show me the honey]

You are correct. Unfortunately people were too quick to dismiss Amm as just local mongrels because of the extinction myth. The OP shows this is not the case, Amm do exist.
Your question is one I have already posed, of course they could. Remember, they have seen none of the extensive work enjoyed by other bees.

I have seen quite a few new beekeepers who are particularly interested in keeping Amm.
(and a fair few seasoned ones as well)

It would seem sensible to improve amm to me ,why put your eggs all in one basket? If they did get funding and 'improved' then there wouldn't be a need to ban imports we just wouldn't need them? in light of this do you think they will get more funding now?

 

[Poly Hive]

BIBBA had a massive opportunity handed to them on a plate some 25 years ago. Muttered about how wownderful it all was and toddled back South never to be heard from again.

Both myself and John and Morna Stokely who between us had set it all up were both astonished and very taken aback. Then poor John died very suddenly and at a very young age and that was that. I lost interest myself. It all seemed pointless.

Then BIBBA decided to broaden their remit to include goodness knows what all and I completely lost any faith that I had had.

So people some quarter of a century has been wasted and I cannot but wonder if that is a disastrous amount of time. Because from what I am hearing where there were Amm now there are not.

I am being realistic not negative here.

PH

 

[Uncle Betty]

No, they are reports of factual comparisons

... comparisons which unfavourably compare Amm with other types.

In your own words...

nowhere near the standards reached by decent Buckfast/Carniolans or Italian bees.

As Polyhive has said they are a little disease prone, mine are martyrs to chalk brood and their daughters are as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are facts, not criticisms.

They are BOTH !

They aren't mutually exclusive things, as I thought everyone knew.

 

[mbc]

BIBBA had a massive opportunity handed to them on a plate some 25 years ago. Muttered about how wownderful it all was and toddled back South never to be heard from again.

Both myself and John and Morna Stokely who between us had set it all up were both astonished and very taken aback. Then poor John died very suddenly and at a very young age and that was that. I lost interest myself. It all seemed pointless.

Then BIBBA decided to broaden their remit to include goodness knows what all and I completely lost any faith that I had had.

So people some quarter of a century has been wasted and I cannot but wonder if that is a disastrous amount of time. Because from what I am hearing where there were Amm now there are not.

I am being realistic not negative here.

PH

Bibba is what it is and that is quite a good thing, there are bibba bee improvement groups doing good work improving amm and enjoying their beekeeping right across the country, I'm not sure what you're getting at about them not taking you up on your "help", maybe it was a personality thing?

 

[B+.]

Bibba is what it is and that is quite a good thing, there are bibba bee improvement groups doing good work improving amm and enjoying their beekeeping right across the country, I'm not sure what you're getting at about them not taking you up on your "help", maybe it was a personality thing?

I have to admit that I was surprised that BIBBA wasn't the inclusive body its name implied it was (or maybe I was naive?). In any case, my experience was that they were almost like a religious cult: you had to follow the ropes without question. If you expressed even the slightest bit of doubt, things became very unpleasant.

 

[Uncle Betty]

I just looked at the BIBBA homepage...

for the conservation, reintroduction, study, selection and improvement of native or near-native honeybees of Britain and Ireland

Seems clear enough to me.

 

[B+.]

I just looked at the BIBBA homepage...



Seems clear enough to me.

Perhaps, it is now. It wasn't always so.

 

[mbc]

I just looked at the BIBBA homepage...



Seems clear enough to me.

Yup, I think the addition of "near native" was to make it more inclusive and less elitist but it's still a clearly stated mission. Essentially it's just an amateur organisation for like minded individuals and groups to have an umbrella, they have annual conferences and a nice magazine, I can see people's frustration with its limitations but personally I think members get out what they put in, much the same as similar voluntary organisations in many walks of life.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Perhaps, it is now. It wasn't always so.

I'll take your word for it, but... an organisation founded by Beowulf Cooper ?

 

[Poly Hive]

MBC? They sent up three senior people.

They gave us thee party line about how the further north the purer the bee blah blah and we showed them samples that backed all that up in spades with some of the discoidal readings off the fan to the left.

When we said about doing some queen rearing they got sort of shifty made noises and left never to be heard from again.

All water under the bridge but it really looked as if it was all too much reality for them.

PH

 

[mbc]

MBC? They sent up three senior people.

They gave us thee party line about how the further north the purer the bee blah blah and we showed them samples that backed all that up in spades with some of the discoidal readings off the fan to the left.

When we said about doing some queen rearing they got sort of shifty made noises and left never to be heard from again.

All water under the bridge but it really looked as if it was all too much reality for them.

PH

So three amateur committee people made the trip north, had a jolly, discovered what they could and returned south where they didn't set the world on fire!? I'm still missing your point, do you want the moon on a stick or what?

 

[dano41]

I have run the following types of bee.

NZ Yellow bees probably Italian but cannot be sure.

Amm. Scottish version from the harder climes of the NE.

Carniolian Alpine strain propagated in NZ and some propogated in Perthshire.

Now it is fair to say the each of these strains has been different from each other and required different management.

If there were to be less bickering and petty nit picking then this thread might actually be informative.

The yellow bees were hopeless as it was obvious they wanted feeding and lived in hope that summer was coming later. Not realising they were in the middle of it. Pure crap for my climes.

The Amm were either very good or very poor. Did not handle stress well, prone to dying mid winter in the midst of good stores either from Nosema or I strongly suspect weakened by it. Just my thoughts there, no real proof though the microscope pointed that way strongly. Also strongly prone to supercedure on the heather which was a good thing to a point.

Carnies = swarming. Almost every colony every year. But... oh what calm quiet productive bees. A joy to own and to teach with.

So yes all very different. But it takes experience to see those differences.


PH

"If there were to be less bickering and petty nit picking then this thread might actually be informative." I agree.
Polyhive could you expand on this post a bit please?
The AMM that were very good, could you explain what you mean by this i.e.did they not have the faults you went on to mention,were they more suited to your weather conditions and fairly productive?The weather were I live is **** nearly all year long.
Did you find that even the bought in NZ carnies would tend to swarm just as much as daughters from them?Did you have to summer feed the carnies a lot more than the Amm.

 

[Brian Bush]

Yes and the reason for imports is because we mortal bee keepers can't breed our chosen bees. We are surrounded by hapless mongrel bees. Not all wish to go down the II route and so we purchase quality queens from those who can breed them.

I am surrounded by 'hapless mongrels' and that is just the bees. My description of the beekeepers would have me prosecuted. Trying to raise queens with a good temperament is in validated in 90% of cases around here by hive owners who have no care for the temperament of drones released into the mating environment, are afraid of their bees and ignore them and/or allow them to swarm increasing the number of nests with unwanted traits.

 

[Brian Bush]

Time to question what you are being told instead of blindly following a mantra. Keeping Amm is no different to trying to breed any another strain of bees. The same problems exist. II is the method to use to be sure you are breeding true strains. Or isolated mating sites if you can find any.
There are no differences.

Once again Beefriendly has hit te nail on the head

 

[Show me the honey]

Yes and the reason for imports is because we mortal bee keepers can't breed our chosen bees. We are surrounded by hapless mongrel bees. Not all wish to go down the II route and so we purchase quality queens from those who can breed them.

But if amm are rare isn't it all the imports mixing that has made the hapless mongrels? What are other countries mongrel bees like? Is it a worldwide thing or just countries that import?

 

[B+.]

But if amm are rare isn't it all the imports mixing that has made the hapless mongrels? What are other countries mongrel bees like? Is it a worldwide thing or just countries that import?

Don´t believe the propaganda.
I breed carnica and use ii/island mated stock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZ0ZmN-W8M
Austrian carnica - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21-7EGmyTrA

 

[Show me the honey]

Don´t believe the propaganda.
I breed carnica and use ii/island mated stock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZ0ZmN-W8M
Austrian carnica - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21-7EGmyTrA

Nice bees

 

[For want of a better word]

But if amm are rare isn't it all the imports mixing that has made the hapless mongrels? What are other countries mongrel bees like? Is it a worldwide thing or just countries that import?

From beekeeping to anthropology.......

From my own observations Amm seem to have hung on in the less inhabited Northern and Westernmost parts and Islands of the UK.
Would this be that beekeepers there could either not afford to import exotics or when they did found that the Amm they were keeping were more adapted and fit for purpose?

The explosion of importation in the mid 1950s and changes from cottager beekeeping for a bit of honey to more middle class, prosperous, back to veggie, I am what I eat, Sun hive and even Flows hive, naturist* hobby beekeeping had some impact... and continues to this day.

BC would be amused no doubt!
* Barefoot possibly?
Yeghes da

 

[Poly Hive]

MBC? We had on a plate what at the time BIBBA said they wanted but when presented with it they ignored it.

Like I said reality was the issue I suspect.

PH