DNA research on Irish AMM.

[B+.]

yes - some of us just want to keep bees and try, in small ways to improve the queens we raise - a lot of far better than continuously importing queens at the behest of foreign breeders then obsessive collecting data on their behalf to prove some magical properties with the aim of convincing more people to buy their product.

Well, it's your time you're wasting. Good luck!
Personally, I'd rather base my breeding on data and science than wishful thinking.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Your opinion - and it is just that, an opinion based on your predjudice on anything not mated on an isolated island in Germany.

 

[SDM]

Your opinion - and it is just that, an opinion based on your predjudice on anything not mated on an isolated island in Germany.

You can't make your mind up can you?
Better a prejudice born out of "obsessive data collection " than prejudice born out of a wish to achieve nothing.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood the Black Bee breeding groups goals as it was explained to me here in Ireland. I thought their intention was to retain the "wild" or feral black bee "native" to this island, with any improvement from a human perspective as being very secondary,

Really ? From the GBBG entry on BIBBA's website...

Galtee Bee Breeding Group was formed in the year 1991 with the object of conservation, study and improvement...

A policy of displacement breeding has been adopted from the start and this we call our Dun Aonghusa system. The elimination of hybrids and other undesirable characteristics such as over-aggressiveness and excessive swarming was our primary objective.

We have identified docile strains that can be manipulated with the minimum of protective clothing and even in shorts and tee shirt in fine weather.

Our next major objective is the reduction in swarming which is an important economic factor in beekeeping. We had a significant breakthrough at the end of the current season when we identified a number of colonies that had come through the past two swarmy seasons without attempting to swarm. The ancestors of these queens had been selected for the combined traits of supersedure, longevity, docility and productivity.

I recall being told that they are not only breeding according to color but have started breeding according to wing appearance (apparently there's some uniqueness in that)

Started ? I doubt that very much.

mention of improvement from our point of view, i.e. less aggression, higher honey yields, etc. appears to being mentioned only to the newer beekeepers to 'sell' the black bee over non-natives, or as a very secondary goal.

You're practically accusing them of deception.

It is probably generous to call your post 'half-baked'. Might be an idea to take it down ?

 

[Uncle Betty]

yes - some of us just want to keep bees and try, in small ways to improve the queens we raise - .

Plenty of beekeepers with dozens of hives don't feel the need to buy in.

For the vast majority of us who aren't even at that level of commercial reality, it isn't necessary at all.

Free country and all that, but it is just more 'posing' than actually embracing the craft.

imho

 

[B+.]

Your opinion - and it is just that, an opinion based on your predjudice on anything not mated on an isolated island in Germany.

Not so. Your prejudice against other nations is clouding your judgement. More so, you tie in any form of controlled breeding. How far do your prejudices go?

 

[B+.]

Plenty of beekeepers with dozens of hives don't feel the need to buy in.

Indeed....and there is nothing wrong with that. However, the goals are different. A beekeepers interest lies in keeping bees and producing honey with what he has. A breeders interest lies in developing desirable traits for the future (e.g. VSH).
JBM seems content with the status quo and denies the need to breed for the future.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Really ? From the GBBG entry on BIBBA's website...











Started ? I doubt that very much.



You're practically accusing them of deception.

It is probably generous to call your post 'half-baked'. Might be an idea to take it down ?

One of the aims of nihbs is to help amm recolonize back into the wild, it's on their website.
Also another group recently changed its name from bee breeders to conservation.
Maybe it's just that grant money is only available for conservation and not improvement...

 

[For want of a better word]

If you're interested in morphometry, take a look at Adam Tofilskis website (http://honeybee.drawwing.org/)

Wing morphometry is just another tool in the draw alongside other morphological analyses and measurements, and taken together with many other factors as well as brood patterns, flying conditions, readiness to swarm... etc etc can and in the past was utilised to identify a species or subspecies in honey bees.

However DNA analyses is the ultimate tool for identification, as unlike morphometrical analyses identification etc,it is only positive proof if the species under the microscope is pure bred. DNA can identify introgression and even when in time it took place and even with which other species.
Hidden away in a dark vault somewhere in Bavaria is a paper showing that the European honey bee called A m carnolia has much introgression in its peppered past. The interesting possibilities are that traits that all the sub species of A m have may be coded in the DNA.... so do not start destroying all the mongrels just as yet!

 

[B+.]

Wing morphometry is just another tool in the draw alongside other morphological analyses and measurements, and taken together with many other factors as well as brood patterns, flying conditions, readiness to swarm... etc etc can and in the past was utilised to identify a species or subspecies in honey bees.

However DNA analyses is the ultimate tool for identification, as unlike morphometrical analyses identification etc,it is only positive proof if the species under the microscope is pure bred. DNA can identify introgression and even when in time it took place and even with which other species.
Hidden away in a dark vault somewhere in Bavaria is a paper showing that the European honey bee called A m carnolia has much introgression in its peppered past. The interesting possibilities are that traits that all the sub species of A m have may be coded in the DNA.... so do not start destroying all the mongrels just as yet!

Give it a rest Icanhopit. Your not-so-subtle attempts to run down a system that works and a bee that is proven is getting very tiring.
I was only providing information on a topic TooBee had shown interest in. No need for you to try to censor it.
Incidentally, its correct classification is Apis melifera carnica NOT carnolia....or any of the other childish words you use.

 

[Finman]

.
I wonder, from where all that money comes

.

 

[B+.]

.
I wonder, from where all that money comes

.

EU?

 

[Beefriendly]

What absolute rubbish

Not rubbish at all. I know of a couple of beekeepers who now keep Italian an Buckfast bees for the same reason....Less likelihood of being stung.

 

[Beefriendly]

Your opinion - and it is just that, an opinion based on your predjudice on anything not mated on an isolated island in Germany.

Not sure where you are coming from Jenkins, but having kept most type of bees myself I know which will give you the biggest colonies, the most honey. Which are more suitable for people who don't wish to use double brood boxes or wish for too much honey. Those that will give you plenty of swarm control practice etc. It's not rocket science. Although if importing queens you do need to know a decent breeder, not buy from the stack 'em high sell cheap brigade.
I even know of areas where the local bees are as docile as my Buckfast/Carniolans etc. Would that I lived in such an area. I may have never ventured down the path I follow.
But to wish and condemn everyone to do as you do is just myopic.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

to wish and condemn everyone to do as you do is just myopic.

I am glad that you also agree with my opinion of B+, his obsession and his attacks on anyone else's opinion

 

[B+.]

I am glad that you also agree with my opinion of B+, his obsession and his attacks on anyone else's opinion

As you, and everyone else reading BeeFriendlys post can see, he was referring to you.

 

[Beefriendly]

I am glad that you also agree with my opinion of B+, his obsession and his attacks on anyone else's opinion

It would be a lot easier if we all accepted others rights to do as they choose. There is far too much you should do as I do. England is a smorgasbord of strains hybrids and everything else in between. It's too late to put the cork back in the bottle.
If you want "pure" strains etc then importation (or II) is about the only way you are going to get them. And if you don't then that's fine. I just get a little fed up of anti-imports mantra's when it's often the only way you can get hold of what you want.

 

[B+.]

It's not rocket science. Although if importing queens you do need to know a decent breeder, not buy from the stack 'em high sell cheap brigade.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely right.

 

[B+.]

B+, his obsession

I will admit to being obsessed. You have to focus on a goal (e,g, VSH) if you want to achieve it. One day, you may be glad that I, and others like me, do what we do.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't really give a toss what kind of bees anyone decides to keep, what I do not like though is the almost evangelical zealotry from both camps when someone mentions an opposite opinion.
It is evident, on every thread where AMM is mentioned, you and your cohort are quick to pounce and conduct an all out attack, reducing the thread from an interesting discussion to the usual nonsense.
It happens from the other side as well, but nowhere near as bad or as vitriolic.
I'm sure that tom Carr will slide back in a moment to do his usual adding petrol to the flames.