DNA research on Irish AMM.

[TooBee...]

The fourth paragraph after the "Introduction" caught my eye, here it is for ease of reference (emphasis and comments in brackets added by me)

Local ecotypes are reported to be the best bees to use in apiculture due to their adaptation to local conditions, adaptations which if lost cannot be replaced.
Evidence suggests that the use of local honey bee populations also provides a higher chance of colony survival (by 83 days), and that the use of maladapted bees attributes to high colony losses, as recently observed in many regions (seems to imply that bees are more resistant to mainly Varroa simply because they are "local").
Utilizing locally adapted subspecies and ecotypes to buffer populations against various stressors is thus an essential tool in honey bee management and protection of honey bee diversity is therefore crucial as genetic diversity protects the evolutionary potential of species to adapt by natural selection in the future.

Firstly, I have quickly read the References cited in the original Article relating to the paragraph above, and wanting to be kind, I think the statements they are making appear a little over emphasized, to put it very mildly in some cases.

Secondly, the last sentence I thought was strange, can members who know more about the conservation, protection and breeding of pure black bees (AMM) correct me (kindly please ) if I am wrong

My understanding is that Black Bee preservation is a reduction or at least restriction of the genetic material in the race, not encouraging diversity? Surely the bee race that promotes diversity the most is the Buckfast Bee, as it would have the greatest "genetic diversity" to be able to "adapt by Natural Selection" if allowed to establish populations for "the Future" in the wild?

Or have I missed something?

 

[birdsandbees]

But the Buckfast bee isn't a 'race' it's a crossbreed that cannot breed true if left to its own devices, eventually you would get regression with dominant or environmentally suited genes winning out.

I think by diversity in this case it means different sub species of bee, evolution has already had thousands of years adapting 'local sub species into what they are today, so if for example, Ireland wiped out all of their bees and started again with Italian Ligustica then it would take a very long time to get to a point where they would be adapted to that environment.

 

[For want of a better word]

blimey you lot don't half butt heads a lot!

I for one was pleased to read the report, after all Ireland is where my first AMM queens are coming from this year.

As I have said before to others that have pulled faces when I told them I was changing to AMM's, they are just bees, as such can be selected like any others, keep the best and bin the rest.
pretty much what has been said already, its fine to have AMM for the sake of having them which is my main drive but Ideally I'd like to improve them, demonstrate that they could be a viable option for those interested in pet bees or for those interested in Honey as their main goal.
my initial concern was keeping them pure, I have now overcome this issue by investing in II equipment, my next hurdle is sourcing further "pure stock" further down the line to keep a degree of genetic diversity and avoid inbreeding depression, with limited sources of pure or near pure stock this is likely to be the sticking point further down the line.

I am a BIBBA member but since joining its all gone very quiet and queens are like rocking horse poop!

I'm beginning to think that BIBBA is an acronym for Bee Invisibility, Better Buy Abroad

maybe I'll get in touch once up and running in a year or two and see if they want to trade?

That seems a little unfair!
As far as I am aware BIBBA is all about encouraging beekeepers to improve their own stock and not importing bees....not as a bee breeding club to supply its members or anyone else!

In Cornwall three different specifically Cornish variants of Amm have been identified using DNA techniques, and I have selected one of these to breed from.
I am lucky and do not need or wish to bring or buy in " foreign" genes


I know of others in the UK who have localised bees that are so introgressed by sporadic importation, that they do not have a place to start from, even though they have bees with 50%+ Amm genetics and possibly will bring in Amm from Ireland..... they will need II or an isolated mating place to keep the "purity" thing going!

 

[For want of a better word]

But the Buckfast bee isn't a 'race' it's a crossbreed that cannot breed true if left to its own devices, eventually you would get regression with dominant or environmentally suited genes winning out.

I think by diversity in this case it means different sub species of bee, evolution has already had thousands of years adapting 'local sub species into what they are today, so if for example, Ireland wiped out all of their bees and started again with Italian Ligustica then it would take a very long time to get to a point where they would be adapted to that environment.

Buckfast breeders use a pedigree system so that they can fix desirable traits into the bees genome... I find this fascinating as there must be sequences coded into the DNA that can ( and will be) identified... so perhaps Brother Adam was correct in saying God did not make the perfect bee .. so man will have to.
I would say that many bee breeders who want to improve their stocks do it in the way of Brother Adam.... dedicated selection and keeping records.

Local adaptation is possibly a lot quicker than a very long time.... but is severely hampered with constant importation and consequential introgression!

My half penneth!

 

[Anduril]

Buckfast breeders use a pedigree system so that they can fix desirable traits into the bees genome... I find this fascinating as there must be sequences coded into the DNA that can ( and will be) identified... so perhaps Brother Adam was correct in saying God did not make the perfect bee .. so man will have to.
I would say that many bee breeders who want to improve their stocks do it in the way of Brother Adam.... dedicated selection and keeping records.

Local adaptation is possibly a lot quicker than a very long time.... but is severely hampered with constant importation and consequential introgression!

My half penneth!

Warning sit down before reading further!


The only way you are going to achieve this is to be altruistic. Encourage beekeepers in your area to have your queens, even giving them away to maintain the gene pool.

 

[mbc]

The fourth paragraph after the "Introduction" caught my eye, here it is for ease of reference (emphasis and comments in brackets added by me)

Local ecotypes are reported to be the best bees to use in apiculture due to their adaptation to local conditions, adaptations which if lost cannot be replaced.
Evidence suggests that the use of local honey bee populations also provides a higher chance of colony survival (by 83 days), and that the use of maladapted bees attributes to high colony losses, as recently observed in many regions (seems to imply that bees are more resistant to mainly Varroa simply because they are "local").
Utilizing locally adapted subspecies and ecotypes to buffer populations against various stressors is thus an essential tool in honey bee management and protection of honey bee diversity is therefore crucial as genetic diversity protects the evolutionary potential of species to adapt by natural selection in the future.

Firstly, I have quickly read the References cited in the original Article relating to the paragraph above, and wanting to be kind, I think the statements they are making appear a little over emphasized, to put it very mildly in some cases.

Secondly, the last sentence I thought was strange, can members who know more about the conservation, protection and breeding of pure black bees (AMM) correct me (kindly please ) if I am wrong

My understanding is that Black Bee preservation is a reduction or at least restriction of the genetic material in the race, not encouraging diversity? Surely the bee race that promotes diversity the most is the Buckfast Bee, as it would have the greatest "genetic diversity" to be able to "adapt by Natural Selection" if allowed to establish populations for "the Future" in the wild?

Or have I missed something?

Are you disputing the findings of the survey by Coloss?

 

[foghornleghorn]

The fourth paragraph after the "Introduction" caught my eye, here it is for ease of reference (emphasis and comments in brackets added by me)

Local ecotypes are reported to be the best bees to use in apiculture due to their adaptation to local conditions, adaptations which if lost cannot be replaced.
Evidence suggests that the use of local honey bee populations also provides a higher chance of colony survival (by 83 days), and that the use of maladapted bees attributes to high colony losses, as recently observed in many regions (seems to imply that bees are more resistant to mainly Varroa simply because they are "local").
Utilizing locally adapted subspecies and ecotypes to buffer populations against various stressors is thus an essential tool in honey bee management and protection of honey bee diversity is therefore crucial as genetic diversity protects the evolutionary potential of species to adapt by natural selection in the future.

Firstly, I have quickly read the References cited in the original Article relating to the paragraph above, and wanting to be kind, I think the statements they are making appear a little over emphasized, to put it very mildly in some cases.

Secondly, the last sentence I thought was strange, can members who know more about the conservation, protection and breeding of pure black bees (AMM) correct me (kindly please ) if I am wrong

My understanding is that Black Bee preservation is a reduction or at least restriction of the genetic material in the race, not encouraging diversity? Surely the bee race that promotes diversity the most is the Buckfast Bee, as it would have the greatest "genetic diversity" to be able to "adapt by Natural Selection" if allowed to establish populations for "the Future" in the wild?

Or have I missed something?

In the Irish case they want to preserve diversity by not using either isolated mating/ii, so no real progress on bee quality will be made...

 

[For want of a better word]

Warning sit down before reading further!


The only way you are going to achieve this is to be altruistic. Encourage beekeepers in your area to have your queens, even giving them away to maintain the gene pool.

We do... although we do charge for queens, as we believe if you have paid good money for something it is cherished more than a freebie!
We provide a free drone flooding service, that is not appreciated by some!

 

[SDM]

Are you disputing the findings of the survey by Coloss?

They're certainly easily disputed. Only 2 non local races trialled at each location. Why not all 11 in the study?
All it tells us is that the two races ( selected to fail?) did not cope as well with varroa and associated local viruses. It tells us nothing about how the vast majority of non locals would have fared . It also deals only with survival duration of untreated colonies in their first generation and nothing of comparative performance of treated colonies, which would surely be more relevant.
The study does little more than indicate the possibility of a local advantage and only in regards to duration of survival untreated.
Certainly not the basis for an import ban or a declaration in favour of local only bees as they are somehow superior.
The absence of a hybrid candidate is rather an oversight also.

 

[mbc]

In the Irish case they want to preserve diversity by not using either isolated mating/ii, so no real progress on bee quality will be made...

This idea that bee improvement can only be achieved by isolated mating or II is wrong, plain and simple wrong, elitist, exclusive, man made non biological wrongness.
If anyone has any doubt about this incontrovertible fact just ask yourself did any bee improvement take place before II was invented or beekeepers started using strict isolated mating, of course it did and anyone who suggests otherwise is a massive bellend who disrespects the good work of so many of our forebears in the magical world of beekeeping.
FACT!

 

[Anduril]

We do... although we do charge for queens, as we believe if you have paid good money for something it is cherished more than a freebie!
We provide a free drone flooding service, that is not appreciated by some!

Is that 100% uptake?

 

[birdsandbees]

That seems a little unfair!
As far as I am aware BIBBA is all about encouraging beekeepers to improve their own stock and not importing bees....not as a bee breeding club to supply its members or anyone else!

In Cornwall three different specifically Cornish variants of Amm have been identified using DNA techniques, and I have selected one of these to breed from.
I am lucky and do not need or wish to bring or buy in " foreign" genes


I know of others in the UK who have localised bees that are so introgressed by sporadic importation, that they do not have a place to start from, even though they have bees with 50%+ Amm genetics and possibly will bring in Amm from Ireland..... they will need II or an isolated mating place to keep the "purity" thing going!

You're right it was unfair, I apologise, I know that they are doing what they can and often the breeding gets halted by bees that go bad so they have to start again.
As I mentioned, I'd be happy to do an exchange with someone if they've had comparable AMM's to trade and will be (if it goes well) selling a few at reasonable prices to local friends and keepers.

 

[Beefriendly]

If anyone has any doubt about this incontrovertible fact just ask yourself did any bee improvement take place before II was invented or beekeepers started using strict isolated mating, of course it did

Well II insemination has been around since 1935, so mute point if we had much in the way of bee improvement prior to that. Skep beekeeping was approx 800 years of selecting bees with frequent swarming traits, the legacy of which we still deal with today. It's debatable whether this was an improvement.

Whilst I don't disagree that limited progress can be made without Isolated mating sites or II, the ability to control whom mates with whom is the crux of any serious breeding program. Not having control over drone lines is akin to tossing a coin in the air. You simply don't know what you will get....and once you have got something decent it won't breed true because you can't control the drones again!

 

[Beefriendly]

Colonsay has an import ban on bees ... it is possible to designate areas for conservation reasons, rather than disease.

Yes, a good point. Isle of Man does similar although they don't have varroa so could be they won't import from areas with disease (varroa).
These are decisions taken at governmental level, not decisions made my beekeeping organisations.

 

[B+.]

This idea that bee improvement can only be achieved by isolated mating or II is wrong, plain and simple wrong, elitist, exclusive, man made non biological wrongness. !

Does anyone actually believe this codswallop?

 

[B+.]

As far as I am aware BIBBA is all about encouraging beekeepers to improve their own stock and not importing bees....not as a bee breeding club to supply its members or anyone else!

Curious....I remember you telling ITLD last summer that he would have to become a member of BIBBA if he wanted to try some of your queens.
I believe ITLDs offer of a fair trial still stands if you want to change your mind.
I did send queens and his J5 line (which is an open mated daughter of 55-2-70-2016) will be tested on the heather this summer (https://twitter.com/calluna4u/status/973582373995630592)

 

[foghornleghorn]

This idea that bee improvement can only be achieved by isolated mating or II is wrong, plain and simple wrong, elitist, exclusive, man made non biological wrongness.
If anyone has any doubt about this incontrovertible fact just ask yourself did any bee improvement take place before II was invented or beekeepers started using strict isolated mating, of course it did and anyone who suggests otherwise is a massive bellend who disrespects the good work of so many of our forebears in the magical world of beekeeping.
FACT!

Maybe a small amount of improvement can be done without it but in the long term it will mean a continuing widening of the gap between other strains.
The development of vsh in carnies+buckfast is a good example, uncontrolled mating won't lead to any significant gains in this in our lifetimes.

In the development of maize, more progress was made in a couple of hundred years of selection when it was moved out of the range of wild teosinte compared to the previous 4000 years of selection with continuous cross pollination occurring which drew it back towards the wild plant

 

[SDM]

This idea that bee improvement can only be achieved by isolated mating or II is wrong, plain and simple wrong, elitist, exclusive, man made non biological wrongness.

The idea that any SERIOUS improvements can be made without isolation or ii is fantasy

 

[TooBee...]

Are you disputing the findings of the survey by Coloss?

Hi mate,

I am not disputing any "survey" as such, I was only commenting that (in my very basic opinion) the claims made in the sole paragraph that I copied and pasted were not supported sufficiently by the References cited.

 

[TooBee...]

Just to add my two cents worth on the "bee improvement" debate that I see here.

Remember that "the bees" idea of improvement is different from our own idea! Aggression is probably an advantage to them to stop two legged animals from stealing their honey: While breeding for non-aggression is an advantage for us to help us to harvest their honey and stay on good terms with next door.

It's just I think I can see a cross over in the discussion on the two different definitions of "improvement". That's all.