DNA research on Irish AMM.

[B+.]

Just to add my two cents worth on the "bee improvement" debate that I see here.

Remember that "the bees" idea of improvement is different from our own idea! Aggression is probably an advantage to them to stop two legged animals from stealing their honey: While breeding for non-aggression is an advantage for us to help us to harvest their honey and stay on good terms with next door.

It's just I think I can see a cross over in the discussion on the two different definitions of "improvement". That's all.

The "wild" type you are referring to isn't a breeding goal of any breeding programme. In fact, in a human dominated world, you could argue that their survival is increasingly determined by our goals. Their "domestication" could be the difference between whether the selected individuals thrive or die out

 

[Finman]

.
What would be idea to breed honeybee wild? What does it means?
What happens then to those beekeepers who do not mind to play cave man game?

Many want to rear army of drones and send their "best drones" to gonqure village's best virgins . He heh heee. 1 against 100.

Quite few of beekeepers mind to breed or select their bees at all.

I have seen many kind of dreams here during the years.

And about open mating... It works as well as before. At least I do not need mating stations.
.

 

[Stiffy]

Edited out by me

 

[Anduril]

We do... although we do charge for queens, as we believe if you have paid good money for something it is cherished more than a freebie!
We provide a free drone flooding service, that is not appreciated by some!

You are looking through rose tinted glasses, this will not provide you with 100% take up, going by the edited response, provide the queens free of charge and there will be a better take up. Even Ron hiskins has turned to II

 

[B+.]

Even Ron hiskins has turned to II

Ron Hoskins has used II for a long time. He was a member of BIIG almost 20 years ago

 

[Stiffy]

You are looking through rose tinted glasses, this will not provide you with 100% take up, going by the edited response, provide the queens free of charge and there will be a better take up. Even Ron hiskins has turned to II

After having hives with AMM and so called Cornish AMM, if they supplied them with a bow wrapped around them, I for one would tell them where to place them!
As for flooding areas with their drones, how arrogant of them expecting everyone to accept what they have decided everyone should have.
S

 

[Anduril]

After having hives with AMM and so called Cornish AMM, if they supplied them with a bow wrapped around them, I for one would tell them where to place them!
As for flooding areas with their drones, how arrogant of them expecting everyone to accept what they have decided everyone should have.
S

There are beekeepers i know who are fed up with AMM and have moved over to Buckfast, this came about because of one beekeepers husband having anaphylaxis.

 

[Swarm]

All strains have stingers, as do hybrids. They can all sting.
Not long ago you said you'd never seen Amm.

 

[Swarm]

I had a very nice day going through the Amm today. They were very well behaved and are bringing the nectar in. Gorgeous brood pattern, a great variety of pollen and beautiful, snow white cappings on their honey, what's all this hatred about?

 

[Anduril]

All strains have stingers, as do hybrids. They can all sting.
Not long ago you said you'd never seen Amm.

Not me personally.

 

[TooBee...]

The "wild" type you are referring to isn't a breeding goal of any breeding programme.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood the Black Bee breeding groups goals as it was explained to me here in Ireland. I thought their intention was to retain the "wild" or feral black bee "native" to this island, with any improvement from a human perspective as being very secondary, I recall being told that they are not only breeding according to color but have started breeding according to wing appearance (apparently there's some uniqueness in that), I have also been told that one group here has had their bees genetically tested and are now breeding in line with that; so I thought that this Published Paper was on the back of this genetic testing.

So, the three things I've been told the Black Bee breeders are breeding for here in Ireland are, 1. Color, 2. Wing appearance, 3. Genetic purity, so you can understand why I thought they were trying to maintain / return to, a wild native bee type (mention of improvement from our point of view, i.e. less aggression, higher honey yields, etc. appears to being mentioned only to the newer beekeepers to 'sell' the black bee over non-natives, or as a very secondary goal.

 

[birdsandbees]

There are beekeepers i know who are fed up with AMM and have moved over to Buckfast, this came about because of one beekeepers husband having anaphylaxis.

Were they actually AMm or just dark bees? Had they been DNA tested? There's a lot of nonsense about regarding AMm being aggressive but most aren't actually AMm.
One of our association members was very anti until she visited a few keepers of good ones, now she says they were very docile and lovely bees.

 

[Anduril]

I had a very nice day going through the Amm today. They were very well behaved and are bringing the nectar in. Gorgeous brood pattern, a great variety of pollen and beautiful, snow white cappings on their honey, what's all this hatred about?

No hatred from me, I have mongrels and one Buckfast, this one is on private land and the owner doesn't notice that they are there. I tried mongrels there but it was a disaster. I get a gorgeous brood pattern and snow white cappings with the Buckfast, same with the mongrels.

 

[Anduril]

Were they actually AMm or just dark bees? Had they been DNA tested? There's a lot of nonsense about regarding AMm being aggressive but most aren't actually AMm.
One of our association members was very anti until she visited a few keepers of good ones, now she says they were very docile and lovely bees.

More likely sold as AMM type.

 

[B+.]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood the Black Bee breeding groups goals as it was explained to me here in Ireland. I thought their intention was to retain the "wild" or feral black bee "native" to this island, with any improvement from a human perspective as being very secondary, I recall being told that they are not only breeding according to color but have started breeding according to wing appearance (apparently there's some uniqueness in that), I have also been told that one group here has had their bees genetically tested and are now breeding in line with that; so I thought that this Published Paper was on the back of this genetic testing.

So, the three things I've been told the Black Bee breeders are breeding for here in Ireland are, 1. Color, 2. Wing appearance, 3. Genetic purity, so you can understand why I thought they were trying to maintain / return to, a wild native bee type (mention of improvement from our point of view, i.e. less aggression, higher honey yields, etc. appears to being mentioned only to the newer beekeepers to 'sell' the black bee over non-natives, or as a very secondary goal.

I hope you have misunderstood. I'd be very concerned if that really was their breeding goal.
Wing vein morphometry is quite an old technique. It is what entomologists have used to differentiate insects which appear similar for many years. DNA is increasingly being used now though.
I don't blame you. It's quite possible that you've misunderstood but it's equally likely that you've been misinformed. Some of the wording can be very ambiguous unless you know what questions to ask.
The way you describe phenotype testing sounds similar to the BeeBreed/SmartBees testing as described in Coloss (http://www.coloss.org/standard-methods-for-rearing-and-selection-of-apis-mellifera-queens/). I've used these tests on Amc for quite a while and have talked about them since I joined this forum.
A word of caution: the tests are designed to provide results which give a breeding value for each trait. This means that they have to use the BeeBreed system. As a member of the NL group, I can see there is no code for Ireland so I can't see how they could be using breeding values.
That probably sounds a bit confusing. I should just have said, the tests by themselves are of little use. If they aren't using the system (which looks at the full ancestry of the tested sister groups) they can't be using breeding values for selecting and improving their stock.
It all sounds a bit fishy to me.

 

[For want of a better word]

There are beekeepers i know who are fed up with AMM and have moved over to Buckfast, this came about because of one beekeepers husband having anaphylaxis.

What absolute rubbish

 

[Anduril]

What absolute rubbish

Didn't see you at the meeting

 

[TooBee...]

...Wing vein morphometry is quite an old technique....The way you describe phenotype testing sounds similar to the BeeBreed/SmartBees testing as described in Coloss (http://www.coloss.org/standard-methods-for-rearing-and-selection-of-apis-mellifera-queens/)....

Thank you for taking the time to explain that, and giving the link, and providing the correct scientific terms (Wing vein morphometry, now I can google it and read all about it - so I don't sound so ignorant).

I remember being shown a sheet of paper apparently showing that the AMM queens that they were breeding were 99.25% pure irish AMM - so when I saw this Paper I assumed there must be a DNA "Type" to compare their genetic purity against.

 

[B+.]

Thank you for taking the time to explain that, and giving the link, and providing the correct scientific terms (Wing vein morphometry, now I can google it and read all about it - so I don't sound so ignorant).

I remember being shown a sheet of paper apparently showing that the AMM queens that they were breeding were 99.25% pure irish AMM - so when I saw this Paper I assumed there must be a DNA "Type" to compare their genetic purity against.

If you're interested in morphometry, take a look at Adam Tofilskis website (http://honeybee.drawwing.org/)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Does anyone actually believe this codswallop?

yes - some of us just want to keep bees and try, in small ways to improve the queens we raise - a lot of far better than continuously importing queens at the behest of foreign breeders then obsessive collecting data on their behalf to prove some magical properties with the aim of convincing more people to buy their product.