Damp rather than cold kills bees

[Finman]

From that perspective, the hive walls serve primarily as a wind break. .

You should think the idea what insulation means

Heat leaks from bee cluster to the interior. Insulation stops the leaking outside. So it works in human home too.

Picture MikkoN in February 17

Here you can see a infra red picture about polyhive in out temp -16C.
http://mehilaishoitajat.pox.fi/index.php?topic=1251.msg8468#new

You see, how heat leaks through the poly wall. Bee cluster may be against the front wall and out temp is -4C.


Picture Pete in January 17 upward

Inner cover is off. Bee cluster has spreaded.

Weather temp was -2C

Peripheria of box was +18C

and in the middle of cluster brooding temp 33C.



.

 

[Beefriendly]

There a water supply if you arrange the dew point to be within the hive. This easily implemented in a tall, narrow, highly insulated(especially on the roof), water vapour impermeable or highly retardant cavity with a single opening at the bottom. The high level of insulation combined with the water vapour quasi-impermeability raises the relative humidity. The stratification with low wall heat heat loss makes the condensation appear on the walls at a relatively high temperature. Another demonstration that the bees on taking up residence in the the tops of tree cavities have it sussed.

As Einstein so aptly said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"

 

[Finman]

As Einstein so aptly said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"

Now question is about missunderstanding. Bees do not need drinking water in winter.

One basic assumption is wrong.

 

[MartinL]

As Einstein so aptly said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"

 

[user 6228]

As Einstein so aptly said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"

what wasnt simple about that? Do you need it at the reading age of a Sun reader?

 

[Beefriendly]

what wasnt simple about that? Do you need it at the reading age of a Sun reader?

Don't you think you are being a little patronising towards Sun readers here....
Most of your posts come across as someone using big abstruse words to show off his supposed academic superiority. It's fine using these technical terms among like minded scientists from similar fields who are used to talking in such terms. But using the same technical terms in a beekeeping forum where few are versed in using them on a daily basis means many of your posts read like gobbly-****.

My Money's on Einstein.

 

[user 6228]

Don't you think you are being a little patronising towards Sun readers here....
Most of your posts come across as someone using big abstruse words to show off his supposed academic superiority. It's fine using these technical terms among like minded scientists from similar fields who are used to talking in such terms. But using the same technical terms in a beekeeping forum where few are versed in using them on a daily basis means many of your posts read like gobbly-****.

My Money's on Einstein.

So Why you dont ask for clarification? Instead you just use epiphets like gobble de **** and "abstruse".
Are you going for the man rather than the ball? heres a another phrase "ad hominem"

Sun reading age is one year below the average. The Guardian is 5 years above it.

intimidated by the words? Do you want pictures? I like pictures, but they take time to make them show things you cant see. But then I guess you dont like graphs. At my lectures I have pictures , lots of pictures, but there are also graphs and equations. It takes quite a bit of time to make things appear simple.

Some Intimidating words:
impermeable
quasi-impermeability
stratification

retardant
relative humidity
dew point
insulation.
condensation
implemented

 

[Beefriendly]

that's your problem. If I'm insufficiently precise you will attempt to pick holes, If precise you claim its not simple. Are you intimidated by the words? Do you want pictures? I like pictures, but they take time to make them show things you cant see. But then I guess you dont like graphs. At my lectures I have pictures , lots of pictures, but there are also graphs and equations.

In a past life I wrote papers, drew graphs, made diagrams and produced pictures and figures for peer reviewed papers that were published in more International journals than I care to recall. So no, your graphs etc have little effect on me, but I do think a good picture is worth a 1000 graphs.
Do you really show graphs at local beekeepers meetings...cardinal error unless they are really simple ones showing very obvious differences. And equations....good god man! my old prof would have kicked you out of the lab for that. But then we were biologists not physicists, so I suppose it may go with the territory....but beekeeping meetings!!!!!!
Talks are about imparting information to a wide audience without boring their pants off. I currently give several talks on the theory of light microscopy....not a graph or equation in sight.....err except one where I simply say you should ignore this And trust me trying to make this subject interesting is a real challenge, but I keep on getting asked back so I figure I must be doing something right.

All I'm suggesting is that you try Einsteins principal of explanation. There is no reason for you to be inaccurate. But be warned it isn't easy to explain complex principals in simple to understand terms anyone can comprehend.
But if you have read or heard Seeley, Koeniger etc talk you will get the idea how complex bee behavioural issues can become understandable and entertaining.

 

[Finman]

Very few beekeeper is Einstein, but they get their hives over winter.

 

[Fusion_power]

Let's not develop an idiosyncrasy of using grandiloquent histrionics to discountenance impecunious abecedarian beekeepers.

DerekM, I find your arguments well reasoned but perhaps incomplete. This is why I question the rather absolute terms in which the position re hive insulation is stated. 1000 colonies set up with half in poly and half in wood will put this argument to rest. A few dozen test colonies in each type hive with sensors for temperature and humidity would go a long way in the right direction.

 

[Finman]

A few dozen test colonies in each type hive with sensors for temperature and humidity would go a long way in the right direction.

why?

Where you need that knowledge? At least beekeepers do not need it.
.
What is right direction?

 

[masterBK]

I agree with Nick (or is it Nigel?)
To try and win an argument using jargon (do they still call it "restricted code"?) is never the way forward. Take a leaf out of David Attenboroughs book. He can put over complex Biological concepts in words that we all can understand.

 

[user 6228]

'Neglect of mathematics work injury to all knowledge, since he who is ignorant of it cannot know the other sciences or things of this world. And what is worst, those who are thus ignorant are unable to perceive their own ignorance, and so do not seek a remedy.,'


Roger Bacon 1292

 

[Finman]

'Neglect of mathematics work injury to all knowledge, since he who is ignorant of it cannot know the other sciences or things of this world. And what is worst, those who are thus ignorant are unable to perceive their own ignorance, and so do not seek a remedy.,'


Roger Bacon 1292

That explains


.

 

[MartinL]

'Neglect of mathematics work injury to all knowledge, since he who is ignorant of it cannot know the other sciences or things of this world. And what is worst, those who are thus ignorant are unable to perceive their own ignorance, and so do not seek a remedy.,'


Roger Bacon 1292

But YOUR ignorance is now under scrutiny here?

 

[Finman]

.
Roger Bacon did not have a smartphone and calculator.
.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Let's not develop an idiosyncrasy of using grandiloquent histrionics to discountenance impecunious abecedarian beekeepers.

DerekM, I find your arguments well reasoned but perhaps incomplete. This is why I question the rather absolute terms in which the position re hive insulation is stated. 1000 colonies set up with half in poly and half in wood will put this argument to rest. A few dozen test colonies in each type hive with sensors for temperature and humidity would go a long way in the right direction.

and so does Roger Bacon: Reasoning draws a conclusion, but does not make the conclusion certain, unless the mind discovers it by the path of experience.

To be fair to Derek, to do the research with sufficient colonies to make the results statistically significant would be a major undertaking - far more than a lone researcher could muster.

CVB

 

[madasafish]

and so does Roger Bacon: Reasoning draws a conclusion, but does not make the conclusion certain, unless the mind discovers it by the path of experience.

To be fair to Derek, to do the research with sufficient colonies to make the results statistically significant would be a major undertaking - far more than a lone researcher could muster.

CVB

Derek outlined a hypothesis based on a limited sample.
Other UK beekepers have used that hypothesis and obtained results which - so far reported - either confirm that hypothesis or do not disprove it..


So as far as I am concerned, hypothesis is confirmed by my personal results .

Now we could argue about whether there are enough samples.. But Einstein's theories of gravity bending light were accepted by one experiment with one planet and star. There are millions of stars in our galaxy and millions of galaxies. SO perhaps if we wanted a proper sample we should be testing millions of stars? Or thousands of hives?

(See the experiments on neonicotinoids as a contrast where experimenters used huge does in lab conditions only and then wrote papers proving the danger of those neonicotinoids sufficiently to cause a ban in use in the EU. In the field, studies do not appear to support such results)

 

[Finman]

Derek outlined a hypothesis based on a limited sample.
Other UK beekepers have used that hypothesis and obtained results which - so far reported - either confirm that hypothesis or do not disprove it..

)

WE have 55 000 hives in Finland, which tell that Derekm's of Fusion's theory has nothing to do with practice.

Our bees over winter in -20C to -30C temperature. Forget all drinking water theories because our bees do not have water what they can drink.




.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Derek outlined a hypothesis based on a limited sample.
Other UK beekepers have used that hypothesis and obtained results which - so far reported - either confirm that hypothesis or do not disprove it..


So as far as I am concerned, hypothesis is confirmed by my personal results .

Now we could argue about whether there are enough samples.. But Einstein's theories of gravity bending light were accepted by one experiment with one planet and star. There are millions of stars in our galaxy and millions of galaxies. SO perhaps if we wanted a proper sample we should be testing millions of stars? Or thousands of hives?

(See the experiments on neonicotinoids as a contrast where experimenters used huge does in lab conditions only and then wrote papers proving the danger of those neonicotinoids sufficiently to cause a ban in use in the EU. In the field, studies do not appear to support such results)

I don't disagree with the hypothesis - indeed all of my hives (all four) have PIR cozies as a result of hearing Derek speak at Totnes the year before last - but it would be good to see a thermal and humidity map of a hive with and without insulation and with and without the monitoring board in place in winter conditions (and summer conditions too, to see the effect of insulation).

As to neonic research, the problem with field trials has been to find a "control" site near to the neonic site that is not contaminated with neonic chemicals. Goulson did some research a few years ago for a government department but the results were not published by the gov't and he has not been allowed to release the results but the impression I get is that neonics are a bigger problem for bumbles than for honeybees. To be honest, I'm confused about the neonic issue - research is published and within days, that research is rubbished by a third party and again, the rubbisher is himself rubbished because of who financially supports their website. Who do you believe?

CVB