Damp rather than cold kills bees

[Finman]

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We can debate, which kills most, cold or damp.

In boath cases the basic reason is too small winter cluster.

And behind that small winter cluster there exist varroa mites, which reduce 2 box clusters to the twist size.

When guys invented that "cold versus damp" theory, they did not know about varroa.
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[linoleum bonypart]

Nacka roof looks like a swienty.... like the new box sides better

 

[Nige.Coll]

Every country has different weather conditions to deal with. The UK is mild and wet as already said. You adapt to the weather.

Do bees overwinter in cedar nationals? Yes with little problems if varroa is managed and have done for many years.

Do we need heavily insulated hives in England ? No.

Do I insulate my hives ? Yes 25 mm celotex built into the roof.

The largest cause I have seen for condensation in poly hives is the silly plastic cover board. Totally useless things always wet and dripping water inside the hive, I throw them away.

If you have to put your bees in heavily insulated boxes to overwinter in the UK maybe some different bees would make life easier for you.

 

[Finman]

Every country has different weather conditions to deal with. The UK is mild and wet as already said. You adapt to the weather.

Do bees overwinter in cedar nationals? Yes with little problems if varroa is managed and have done for many years.

Do we need heavily insulated hives in England ? No.

Do I insulate my hives ? Yes 25 mm celotex built into the roof.

The largest cause I have seen for condensation in poly hives is the silly plastic cover board. Totally useless things always wet and dripping water inside the hive, I throw them away.

If you have to put your bees in heavily insulated boxes to overwinter in the UK maybe some different bees would make life easier for you.

You guys out there have not noticed that warm polyhive gives best spring build up to colonies. Early build up and early yield is the most important feature in poly hive.
..
It is like cars. I hate Lexus but I love KIA.
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[Erichalfbee]

and if we over insulate we have to ensure more winter stores to supply flying, brood rearing bees with no forage.

I will stick with my cedar hives as I do not need 4cm thick polyhives with added insulation under the roof. It is as you say, you can overwinter bees in Finland in 2cm polyhives why would the uk need 4cm walls?

Kind regards and I wish you every success when your bees wake up.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Well insulated bees actually use fewer stores than poorly insulated. brood rearing to any extent in the winter is down to the type of bee

 

[Beefriendly]

The largest cause I have seen for condensation in poly hives is the silly plastic cover board. Totally useless things always wet and dripping water inside the hive, I throw them away.

Nige, I'm surprised you are encountering this. It's something I rarely see with the clear plastic cover boards. I sometimes get some condensation around the edges in winter when they are tightly clustered but otherwise I'm constantly amazed at how dry the perspex sheets remain inside my hives. I enjoy being able to remove the roof an watch bees through it.
But if you are throwing them away, please send my way.

 

[Finman]

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Ridiculous.

We have discusses about these things years. And now ............

good heavens.

 

[madasafish]

The largest cause I have seen for condensation in poly hives is the silly plastic cover board. Totally useless things always wet and dripping water inside the hive, I throw them away.

If you have to put your bees in heavily insulated boxes to overwinter in the UK maybe some different bees would make life easier for you.

Zero condensation in my hives nor on my plastic crownboards. - poly and wood with 50mm cosies with 100mm roof.
25MM in roof is NOT enough.. 50mm minimum.. 100mm better.

And what about the heat leaking round the edges of the crownboard..?By conduction ..

One year of mouldy combs with uninsulated wood is enough.

Clear crownboards make checking on fondant easy without disturbing bees - a no brainer for me

 

[Erichalfbee]

Nige, I'm surprised you are encountering this. It's something I rarely see with the clear plastic cover boards. I sometimes get some condensation around the edges in winter when they are tightly clustered but otherwise I'm constantly amazed at how dry the perspex sheets remain inside my hives. I enjoy being able to remove the roof an watch bees through it.
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Mine are the same

 

[Finman]

Zero condensation in my hives

I have lots of condensation in my hives, but it does not harm if it does not happen in inner cover.

 

[user 6228]

Every country has different weather conditions to deal with. The UK is mild and wet as already said. You adapt to the weather.

Do bees overwinter in cedar nationals? Yes with little problems if varroa is managed and have done for many years.

Do we need heavily insulated hives in England ? No.

Do I insulate my hives ? Yes 25 mm celotex built into the roof.

The largest cause I have seen for condensation in poly hives is the silly plastic cover board. Totally useless things always wet and dripping water inside the hive, I throw them away.

If you have to put your bees in heavily insulated boxes to overwinter in the UK maybe some different bees would make life easier for you.

Heat retention requires attention to detail... did plastic cover cause an air leak? did the clear plastic reach the outside air... either of these can cause cold spots.

The PIR cosies do have an advantage in that its simpler to ensure no leaks or heat bridges and you can check without letting bees out.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Heat retention requires attention to detail... did plastic cover cause an air leak? did the clear plastic reach the outside air... either of these can cause cold spots.

The PIR cosies do have an advantage in that its simpler to ensure no leaks or heat bridges and you can check without letting bees out.

Your an intelligent man derekm and your work is fascinating but I won't be making cosies for my hives until I see a need for it in my bees. I would need a storage shed for the cosies too lol.
They are fine in their little wooden boxes and all have overwintered well.
I have seen a difference in colonies with and without an insulated roof which is why I insulate mine but I don't see the need to go to the extreme of cosies yet.
Poly hives are getting better but I am too far invested in cedar to change now.

If I was starting over then YES I would buy poly Langstroth hives not nationals but c'est la vie.

Next time you go to see dave you'll have to pop round for a cuppa

 

[Swarm]

One year of mouldy combs with uninsulated wood is enough.

It sounds like it was a problem with the hive, not what it was made of.

 

[REDWOOD]

When this thread dies it will be summer

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Your an intelligent man derekm and your work is fascinating but I won't be making cosies for my hives until I see a need for it in my bees. I would need a storage shed for the cosies too lol.
They are fine in their little wooden boxes and all have overwintered well.
I have seen a difference in colonies with and without an insulated roof which is why I insulate mine but I don't see the need to go to the extreme of cosies yet.
Poly hives are getting better but I am too far invested in cedar to change now.

If I was starting over then YES I would buy poly Langstroth hives not nationals but c'est la vie.

Next time you go to see dave you'll have to pop round for a cuppa

Why would you a storage shed for the cosies. I keep my cozies on all year.

The brood nest temperature is mid 30s. It's very rare that we get an ambient temperature in the 30's so a cosy helps the bees maintain an ideal brooding temperature in the spring/summer. As you add supers, the cozy keeps the top supers warm to aid evaporation of nectar water-content.

All you've got to do is make some cozies and sell your wooden roofs - might even make money on the deal!

CVB

 

[REDWOOD]

What about humidity in the summer ? the hotter the air the more fluid it can carry. raising the humidity from 68% to 87% increases the percentage of brood mummification caused by the chalk brood by 8%

 

[user 6228]

What about humidity in the summer ? the hotter the air the more fluid it can carry. raising the humidity from 68% to 87% increases the percentage of brood mummification caused by the chalk brood by 8%

where are the figures from?

from this
Flores, J.M. et al., 1996. Effect of temperature and humidity of sealed brood on chalkbrood development under controlled conditions. Apidologie, 27, pp.185–192. ?

Its a trade off - versus the much higher rate of chalkbrood caused by lower temps .... which occur all the way from spring to autumn
Brood do best at higher humidities anyway...

 

[Little John]

Well insulated bees actually use fewer stores than poorly insulated.

Are you absolutely sure about that ?

From: Beekeeping For All, Emile Warre, 12th Ed.
" To my great surprise, I noticed straight away that the bees consumed less of their stores in the hives with single walls where they would feel the cold still more in winter. This is however normal. In single-walled hives, the bees are torpid; they are as if in a continuous sleep. Now, who dines in that condition? With hives with warm walls, the bees are active for longer, and thus have need of sustenance. The single-walled hive thus economises on wood and stores, by as much as 2kg from November to February." p.39

LJ

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm sure...as far as mine are concerned so perhaps I should have added that.
I've kept both wooden hives and poly and cosied wooden hives all through the same winters with similar bees. The bees in insulated hives are active most of the winters we have and I have to take stores out of the brood box in spring.
This year ALL my overwintering colonies are in poly and have plenty of food.

 

[Finman]

Are you absolutely sure about that ?

From: Beekeeping For All, Emile Warre, 12th Ed.
" To my great surprise, I noticed straight away that the bees consumed less of their stores in the hives with single walls where they would feel the cold still more in winter. This is however normal. In single-walled hives, the bees are torpid; they are as if in a continuous sleep. Now, who dines in that condition? With hives with warm walls, the bees are active for longer, and thus have need of sustenance. The single-walled hive thus economises on wood and stores, by as much as 2kg from November to February." p.39

LJ

Warre is wrong.
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