Damp rather than cold kills bees

[Quis Custodiet]

I for one welcome with open arms anyone prepared to speak with a scientific hat on. Too many arm chair, back seat driver beekeepers around.

Queens and Trinity are two centres of excellence here in Ireland who would regard it as unthinkably rude if someone wore a hat while lecturing or attending a lecture. "derekm" had by his own admission a free university education ( which he tells us he is not afraid to use!) so different values might apply. That is probably not the case so you are doing him an injustice .
Unfortunately I can only agree with you that there are "Too many arm chair, back seat driver beekeepers around". But you can escape from that group

 

[MartinL]

you confuse temperature and heat loss,
and fungal growth is not necessarily deadly , i eat it most weeks
mushrooms, cheese, bread etc.

As regards building regs they specify a water vapour retardant, honeybees apply their own to match their requirements of 90% RH

Firstly, Cheese is not a fungi & not all mushrooms are edible!
Secondly how would you propose to regulate/control which spores are to grow in your damp/humid hives?

As for the building regs, I was specifically referring to Part"C" something you clearly haven't understood if in-fact you read bothered to read it.

 

[Swarm]

To accept any scientific research does not mean you accept all of it or that you do it blindly.
I shout more at academic papers now than the radio now.

however not to accept the basics is lunacy.

basics like buoyancy of heated and less dense gases , heat capacity, conductance, latent heat of vaporisation, dew point

and to ignore these basics as "theory" and not "experience" is narrow minded and blinkered to put it mildly.

and frankly anyone who does so is missing out on life

LOL. Missing out on life? I guess I'll carry on missing out on all the fun you are having reading countless papers. I'm glad you are finding acadaemia full of contradiction and inaccuracy, it is and it's just a case if you can be arsed to listen to it all.

 

[user 6228]

Queens and Trinity are two centres of excellence here in Ireland who would regard it as unthinkably rude if someone wore a hat while lecturing or attending a lecture. "derekm" had by his own admission a free university education ( which he tells us he is not afraid to use!) so different values might apply. That is probably not the case so you are doing him an injustice .
Unfortunately I can only agree with you that there are "Too many arm chair, back seat driver beekeepers around". But you can escape from that group

The only hats I recall I wore at University were when going mountaineering and at graduation.

 

[user 6228]

LOL. Missing out on life? I guess I'll carry on missing out on all the fun you are having reading countless papers. I'm glad you are finding acadaemia full of contradiction and inaccuracy, it is and it's just a case if you can be arsed to listen to it all.

so you dont understand how your fridge works or your central heating radiators then?

 

[MartinL]

so you dont understand how your fridge works or your central heating radiators then?

Turn your fridge off and without ventilation everything inside 'll be covered in mould in just a few days.

 

[REDWOOD]

Does it. Really matter if you don't know


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Poly Hive]

TBH it's time this thread just quietly gave up the ghost and died.

Please.

PH

 

[user 6228]

ab

 

[Swarm]

It was only ever started to trot out the usual ... and Derek when I switch on the fridge it gets cold so I can keep chilled stuff inside and when I switch the heating on it gets warm.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

The only hats I recall I wore at University were when going mountaineering and at graduation.

Thank you for clarifying that. I really think you should take up beekeeping and learn to relax... I'm sure it can be a most enjoyable hobby.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

What happened, Derek, was it a cold and wet day and you nearly lost the will to live so you thought you’d start a thread about the thermodynamics of the hive?

You should have consulted St Martin de Torres, the Patron Saint of Public Education who would have informed you of the perils of such an undertaking.

There are none so deaf as those that don’t want to hear. There are some people who can make a virtue out of ignorance.

CVB

 

[Gilberdyke John]

There are none so deaf as those that don’t want to hear. There are some people who can make a virtue out of ignorance.

CVB

Ain't that the truth

 

[user 6228]

What happened, Derek, was it a cold and wet day and you nearly lost the will to live so you thought you’d start a thread about the thermodynamics of the hive?

You should have consulted St Martin de Torres, the Patron Saint of Public Education who would have informed you of the perils of such an undertaking.

There are none so deaf as those that don’t want to hear. There are some people who can make a virtue out of ignorance.

CVB

When I was writing a proposal for research funding to prove the futility of match sticks , I was searching for a UK reference in the NBU I came across the NBU using this grossly inaccurate misleading adage, and i had an overwhelming need to vent. Its one thing for a naive beginner to do this, perhaps at one of my lectures, but the for NBU! supposedly full of highly educated people.

Perhaps I should have just sighed and wrote it off as part the weird world that has people still citing Anderson's 1943 paper 73 years later including two very high ranking entomology professors (thanks to fusion for a copy of the paper), which is, as an experiment in heat transfer , laughable.

The other expression I hate is "honeybees dont heat the hive they only heat the cluster" which is a thermal impossibility and a misquote of the more finely nuanced statement by Charles D Owen in 1971 where he said "honeybees make no attempt to maintain the temperature in the domicile outside the winter cluster" which was accurate for his experiment but a pointless statement, because if they attempted to do in his experiments so they would die.

 

[Finman]

The other expression I hate is "honeybees dont heat the hive they only heat the cluster" which is a thermal impossibility and a misquote of the more finely nuanced statement by Charles D Owen in 1971 where he said "honeybees make no attempt to maintain the temperature in the domicile outside the winter cluster" which was accurate for his experiment but a pointless statement, because if they attempted to do in his experiments so they would die.

understood like a One Thousand and One Nights stories.

 

[Fusion_power]

The other expression I hate is "honeybees dont heat the hive they only heat the cluster" which is a thermal impossibility

I think the intent of this statement is that bees heat the cluster and do not make an effort to maintain the temperature of the interior of the hive. From that perspective, the hive walls serve primarily as a wind break. The cluster maintains temperatures of around 36 C or a tad higher. This requires significant consumption of stores and releases water at the predictable rate of @18% which is the moisture level of honey plus 6 molecules of CO2 and 6 of H2O for each sugar molecule metabolized. (1 - C6H12O6 + 6 O2 -> 6 C02 + 6 H2O) Heating the cluster releases that heat into the hive interior. As external temperatures drop, a thermal column forms above the cluster with heat and moisture rising to the hive cover. If the temperature difference is significant, moisture will condense out of the column and can cause several problems such as dysentery, nosema, and various fungal infections. Removing this moisture from the hive interior is the reason various upper openings are used.

The way I understand highly insulated hives is that the heat the bees release is more able to fill the interior of the hive which changes the dynamic of the vertical column rising from the bees. Moisture is unable to condense onto hive surfaces because the temperature differential is not high enough. This in turn leads to the bees metabolizing significantly less honey which causes a water shortage in the hive. So granted that eps/pir hives significantly affect heat dissipation from the cluster, how do you propose that the bees meet their winter water requirements given that exterior temperatures are far too low for foraging? I'm genuinely interested in this so please don't think I am trolling your thread.

 

[madasafish]

I think the intent of this statement is that bees heat the cluster and do not make an effort to maintain the temperature of the interior of the hive. From that perspective, the hive walls serve primarily as a wind break. The cluster maintains temperatures of around 36 C or a tad higher. This requires significant consumption of stores and releases water at the predictable rate of @18% which is the moisture level of honey plus 6 molecules of CO2 and 6 of H2O for each sugar molecule metabolized. (1 - C6H12O6 + 6 O2 -> 6 C02 + 6 H2O) Heating the cluster releases that heat into the hive interior. As external temperatures drop, a thermal column forms above the cluster with heat and moisture rising to the hive cover. If the temperature difference is significant, moisture will condense out of the column and can cause several problems such as dysentery, nosema, and various fungal infections. Removing this moisture from the hive interior is the reason various upper openings are used.

The way I understand highly insulated hives is that the heat the bees release is more able to fill the interior of the hive which changes the dynamic of the vertical column rising from the bees. Moisture is unable to condense onto hive surfaces because the temperature differential is not high enough. This in turn leads to the bees metabolizing significantly less honey which causes a water shortage in the hive. So granted that eps/pir hives significantly affect heat dissipation from the cluster, how do you propose that the bees meet their winter water requirements given that exterior temperatures are far too low for foraging? I'm genuinely interested in this so please don't think I am trolling your thread.

No evidence of water shortages in my 8 - all insulated or poly - hives..

Water condenses on the floor..and on the varroa board if fitted.

 

[user 6228]

I think the intent of this statement is that bees heat the cluster and do not make an effort to maintain the temperature of the interior of the hive. From that perspective, the hive walls serve primarily as a wind break. The cluster maintains temperatures of around 36 C or a tad higher. This requires significant consumption of stores and releases water at the predictable rate of @18% which is the moisture level of honey plus 6 molecules of CO2 and 6 of H2O for each sugar molecule metabolized. (1 - C6H12O6 + 6 O2 -> 6 C02 + 6 H2O) Heating the cluster releases that heat into the hive interior. As external temperatures drop, a thermal column forms above the cluster with heat and moisture rising to the hive cover. If the temperature difference is significant, moisture will condense out of the column and can cause several problems such as dysentery, nosema, and various fungal infections. Removing this moisture from the hive interior is the reason various upper openings are used.

The causality between condensation and high rates of dysentery, nosema, and various fungal infections is not proven in the abscence of high heat loss. Where as high heat loss places the bees under stress not only from having to generate more heat but also withstanding low relative humidity. Condensation reduces RH and bees need High RH

The way I understand highly insulated hives is that the heat the bees release is more able to fill the interior of the hive which changes the dynamic of the vertical column rising from the bees. Moisture is unable to condense onto hive surfaces because the temperature differential is not high enough. This in turn leads to the bees metabolizing significantly less honey which causes a water shortage in the hive. So granted that eps/pir hives significantly affect heat dissipation from the cluster, how do you propose that the bees meet their winter water requirements given that exterior temperatures are far too low for foraging? I'm genuinely interested in this so please don't think I am trolling your thread.

Their water requirement is inversely related to relative humidity and directly related to the food stores they need to consume.

So if you increase the RH and decrease the food requirement, stop water vapour losses and make the condensation occur in a warm environment within the nest enclosure were the bees can gain access during the winter, problem solved

 

[Finman]

No evidence of water shortages in my 8 - all insulated or poly - hives..

Water condenses on the floor..and on the varroa board if fitted.

It is like madasafish says.

Our bees are in cluster 5 months. They cannot reach water even if moisture condensates somewhere.In outemp -8C hive condensation makes snow onto hive corners. Bees do no lick from floor because floor is covered with ice.

Fusion has out there +30C when we have here -20C. Nice to read African theory about "condensating water on Polar Circle".

The hive is so cold that bees cannot move outside of cluster. They cannot even change the seam of the combs.

You have there in +10C winter weather your explanations. They harm anything. Bees can take care themselves like they have done million of years after Ice Ace.
.

 

[Finman]

I think the intent of this statement is that bees heat the cluster and do not make an effort to maintain the temperature of the interior of the hive. From that perspective, the hive walls serve primarily as a wind break. The cluster maintains temperatures of around 36 C or a tad higher. This requires significant consumption of stores and releases water at the predictable rate of @18% which is the moisture level of honey plus 6 molecules of CO2 and 6 of H2O for each sugar molecule metabolized. (1 - C6H12O6 + 6 O2 -> 6 C02 + 6 H2O) Heating the cluster releases that heat into the hive interior. As external temperatures drop, a thermal column forms above the cluster with heat and moisture rising to the hive cover. If the temperature difference is significant, moisture will condense out of the column and can cause several problems such as dysentery, nosema, and various fungal infections. Removing this moisture from the hive interior is the reason various upper openings are used.

The way I understand highly insulated hives is that the heat the bees release is more able to fill the interior of the hive which changes the dynamic of the vertical column rising from the bees. Moisture is unable to condense onto hive surfaces because the temperature differential is not high enough. This in turn leads to the bees metabolizing significantly less honey which causes a water shortage in the hive. So granted that eps/pir hives significantly affect heat dissipation from the cluster, how do you propose that the bees meet their winter water requirements given that exterior temperatures are far too low for foraging? I'm genuinely interested in this so please don't think I am trolling your thread.

Says a guy who do not understand insulation not at all. And less the water requirements.
Your water theory is awfull.


But you do not live in such environment that you should need to understand.
.

.