Carniolan Queen bee

[Cussword]

Not so. You can control mating by island mating or instrumental insemination (https://youtu.be/b_vcpRnYhHg)
I am not sure what you mean by the changing nature of the queens offspring but this doesn't happen. As I said previously, the semen are mixed in the spermatheca so it can't happen.

Is Island mating the same as open mating?

 

[Motobiman]

Presumably these island colonies are cut off from diversification of the gene pool so are basically all related to a greater degree than an openly mated queen.

'Open mating' suggests no control of the stock at all so no control of the gene pool.

Doesn't it take only four generations using pure bred drones to completely remove any hybridisation in bees?

The drone is only related to the queen not the drone who inseminated her.

Try this for size.

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetics.html

 

[B+.]

#12

One can can but how often does that happen?

Semen is only the fluid containing individual sperm and as the mating comes from different males and a single sperm inseminates each egg then their DNA is different and they may well pass on different traits to the offspring from the same queen.

Presupposing of course that the behaviour trait is entirely nature and not nuture.

I'm not suggesting your wrong just trying to understand a complex subject.

The drone is haploid (posessing a single set of 16 chromosomes which he inherits from his mother). Consequently, the drone can only use those 16 chromosomes in his sperm....so, all sperm produced by a single drone are clones. All drones produced by a single queen will contain similar but not identical sperm so there will be some, slight variation.
If you take virgin queens to an isolated mating station, far from any other drone they might meet, and the only mates she can find are those drone colonies you have provided, you can influence the outcome of the mating process. This is what happens on island mating stations.
Now, having decided that you are going to control the drones the queen can mate with, how do you go about selecting which queen(s) will provide them? Well, it helps if you have tested both maternal (i.e. the dam - called "2a") and paternal (i.e. the sire - "called 4a") side of the pedigree. When the number of virgins to be mated is so high that a single drone producing colony (4a) is not enough, daughter queens (1b) can be used to multiply the number of drones available many fold. Typically, 15-20 daughter colonies are used at island mating stations, and, anywhere up to 50 on land-based isolated mating stations (e.g. The Thuringian Forest used by the German varroa Tolerance Working group AGT).
Since the sperm produced by a single drone are clones, you can have a number of sub-families within a colony (depending on how many drones the queen mated with). The only variation within these sub-families has to come from the queen side because, as we said earlier, the drone only has 16 chromosomes and has to use them all.
You can see how very little variation can occur in the workers produced by a queen mated to a single drone (this is something that doesn't usually occur naturally but it is a technique that can be used in Instrumental Insemination to increase the occurrence of a particular trait e.g. VSH). Slightly more variation can occur when all the drone producing colonies (1b) are daughters of a single queen and even more when they are unrelated.
You raise the point about nature vs nurture or, as genetecists like to put it, genotype vs phenotype. It is true that environmental factors cause genes to be expressed slightly differently in different conditions. It is also true that we are not talking about the behaviour of a single bee when we assess colonies: there are many sub-families and each affects the other, the queen also affects all of the workers....so...what we have is a composite of all these different effects working together, and this is what we call "performance".
A huge amount of research has been done over the years and our knowledge has gradually improved but, we will always be in the realms of mathematical estimates since we are not talking about measuring a single individual but a colony. The latest development that I am aware of is a paper written by my supervisor on BeeBreed, Prof Brascamp (http://edepot.wur.nl/326724)

 

[Motobiman]

Err yep got it thanks and maybe helps to explain why there are almost as many questions as answers as far as the behaviour of a particular colony is concerned.

Don't all drones produced by any queen have no genes from a 'father' as they are hatched from unfertilised eggs so are pure clones and their sperm is cloned as well?

It's only the females that have the fathers genes from the insemination by a sperm surely?

 

[B+.]

Don't all drones produced by any queen have no genes from a 'father' as they are hatched from unfertilised eggs so are pure clones and their sperm is cloned as well?

It's only the females that have the fathers genes from the insemination by a sperm surely?

Correct: a drone has no father or sons
The drones aren't clones but all the sperm produced by a single drone are.
Correct again: workers and queens are diploid (meaning they possess a genetic contribution from both queen and drone). Drones are haploid so they only have a single set of 16 chromosomes from the queen.
The Karyotype for a honeybee is 32 (meaning that the diploid (queen or worker) has 2 sets of 16 chromosomes (1 from the sire and 1 from the dam)

 

[B+.]

Is Island mating the same as open mating?

Queens are open mated on the islands because they are so far away from any other bees that they have complete control over which drones the queens can mate with

 

[Motobiman]

Got it. Thanks

 

[Cussword]

Queens are open mated on the islands because they are so far away from any other bees that they have complete control over which drones the queens can mate with

Me too, thanks Paul...

 

[Finman]

Prof. Kaspar Bienfeld did publish a paper a long time ago that showed inbreeding of the queen produced swarmy colonies while inbreeding in workers produced a calmer, more productive colony (https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_workers_on_colony_traits_in_the_honey_bee)
Accordingly, it is not so much the race that determines swarming tendency but the degree of inbreeding and whether it occurs in the queen or the workers.

I did not understand that explanation at all.

Swarming and agressiveness are natural habit of honeybee.
Nonswarming and calmness are result of human selection.

How inbreeding adds swarming! Compared to what? Bees natural system is that it produces two swarms in a year. How many swarms does inbred hive produces?

Very strange

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[Finman]

Correct: a drone has no father or sons
)

But that is false too as well as well right. When the queen was born, it has a father. That same father is the father of queen's drones, when we look, how genes move from drones to drones.

Italian queen and Carniolan drone get married. Italian queen produces crossed daughters but Italian drones. In next generation crossed daughters produce crossed drones. So in second generation drones have boath Italian and Carniolan genes, which proves that drones had father.

Idea of sexual production is to mix genes even in bacteria. It produced material to evolution.

Even aphids, which are clones half a year, start to mate in autumn and mix genes with male & female system.

 

[Finman]

.
Genetically Italian and Carniolans races are very closest to each other, when we compare all 20 Apis mellifera types in Europe and Africa.

When we compare swarming habits and their ability to protect their hives against an enemy, it has nothing to do with inbreeding.

American Russian bee has Caucasian bee genes. Russian bees' home is east Siberia. Russian bee has very different habits than original Caucasian bee.

Russian bee has an odd habit. It has all the time queen cells, even if it is not going to swarm.

 

[Finman]

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How to handle aggressiveness.

Russian beekeepers near Finnish border have such habit in harvesting, that one man puts an bear suit on, and goes in front oc hive. When meanwhile bees attack on bear man, other two men rob the honey yield.

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[birdsandbees]

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How to handle aggressiveness.

Russian beekeepers near Finnish border have such habit in harvesting, that one man puts an bear suit on, and goes in front oc hive. When meanwhile bees attack on bear man, other two men rob the honey yield.

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That sounds hilarious, I'd love to see that in action

 

[B+.]

In next generation crossed daughters produce crossed drones. So in second generation drones have boath Italian and Carniolan genes, which proves that drones had father.

You missed a generation Finman. They would be grandsons

 

[Motobiman]

Not sure the Missus would be up for that dressing up game . . . . . . .

 

[Cussword]

Not sure the Missus would be up for that dressing up game . . . . . . .

If she is,,,,,,,, make sure to take pictures.


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[Finman]

You missed a generation Finman. They would be grandsons

I have not missed generation. Evolution progress does not stir at one generation but but large scale, how genes are changed in sexual intercourse.

I have studied genetics in university and nursed bees54 years. Nothing to be missed is this thing. It is so simple and well known thing. And there are huge number of species which reproduce same way, and in many others ways.

And do not start to explain different weathers, please.
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[Finman]

You missed a generation Finman. They would be grandsons

If you understand genetically, what means father. Mother line and father line, which can be followed with genemap.



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[B+.]

If you understand genetically, what means father. Mother line and father line, which can be followed with genemap.



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Please don't take offence Finman. It was a simple explanation to help people understand the process and relationships while recognising that the egg that produced the drone is unfertilised (the drone is produced by parthenogenesis). That is why I said he has no father. He has no sons for the same reason

 

[Finman]

Everyone knows, how drones get their birth.