What do you want or expect from your bees?

[Murox]

I really do like my Amm's they tick a lot of boxes for me, they produce sufficiently well for my needs, many of the above boxes are being ticked but its early days with them for me.
I have tried BF and have a couple of Italians, the worst bees I had were Carniolans, swarmy things they were!

So what is it about AMM that you like, what sets them apart from the others for you? and how did you find the bees that "ticked your boxes"?

 

[Show me the honey]

I see beekeepers locally who have really horrible, runny, swarmy bees.

And others who select bees without those characteristics have nice non swarmy non runny bees.

And generally the latter get much bigger honey crops..
Can that be to do with the difficulty of managing the horrible bees ?
Or are the latter beekeepers just better ones?

Do you think runny bees swarm more? It’s her first year so probably won’t find out this year but is there a link?

 

[B+.]

the worst bees I had were Carniolans, swarmy things they were!

Where did you get them? I rarely have a swarm from mine.
Someone made a point earlier about appropriate husbandry. That may be part of your problem. If you keep a prolific bee in a small box, like a National, you may not be giving them enough space. I usually find that mine need a double Langstroth for brood, then 3 or 4 more for honey

 

[foghornleghorn]

Where did you get them? I rarely have a swarm from mine.
Someone made a point earlier about appropriate husbandry. That may be part of your problem. If you keep a prolific bee in a small box, like a National, you may not be giving them enough space. I usually find that mine need a double Langstroth for brood, then 3 or 4 more for honey

The Slovenian ones are quite swarmy

 

[B+.]

The Slovenian ones are quite swarmy

That may explain some of Brother Adams comments. I only use carnica from the BeeBreed population which has been selectively bred for generations for all the traits in the original post. They are expressed to varying degrees but the ones I have at the moment are outstanding. Even so, I am always looking for improvements

 

[Murox]

The Slovenian ones are quite swarmy

They are sometimes called “the Slovenian bee”, the carniolan originates in the Balkan peninsular Austrian Alps, Danube Valley regions, Hungary, Croatia down to Bosnia and Serbia.

Is it true that daughter queens resulting from cross-breeding with local strains can be particularly aggressive ?

 

[B+.]

Is it true that daughter queens resulting from cross-breeding with local strains can be particularly aggressive ?

Not in my experience but that depends on the local bee. Remember: half of the chromosomes that go to make the female progeny (workers and queens) are contributed by the drones.
When I make open mated queens, I do my best to flood the area with drones from good lines (I am about half way through making 100 nucs which will do this next year). I have apiaries every 1-2 miles apart - but, I still can't account for the bees that other beekeepers keep. The only way to avoid this is to use Instrumental Insemination. That is why I've been marking drones (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc )

 

[Finman]

.
Normal Carniolan bee is a sure swarmer. B+ has carefully bred bees. Impossible to compare to normal Carniolan.

Non swarming is a Gene error from the view of the bee reproduction and it is human made. When it becomes a crossing, gene error will be repaired. That is why crossings and mongrels are more like natural bees.

 

[B+.]

.
Normal Carniolan bee is a sure swarmer. B+ has carefully bred bees. Impossible to compare to normal Carniolan.

Non swarming is a Gene error from the view of the bee reproduction and it is human made. When it becomes a crossing, gene error will be repaired. That is why crossings and mongrels are more like natural bees.

However, what you fail to address, is that drones inherit 100% of their genetic material from their mother...so...drone flooding with first generation drones works (at least as a means of spreading the genes from the mother)

 

[Finman]

However, what you fail to address, is that drones inherit 100% of their genetic material from their mother...so...drone flooding with first generation drones works (at least as a means of spreading the genes from the mother)

I did not failed, but you failed.

You mean that the Queen mate with hive's own drones. That is bad.

Actually you cannot say with whom they mate.

 

[B+.]

.
Normal Carniolan bee is a sure swarmer. B+ has carefully bred bees. Impossible to compare to normal Carniolan.

Non swarming is a Gene error from the view of the bee reproduction and it is human made. When it becomes a crossing, gene error will be repaired. That is why crossings and mongrels are more like natural bees.

What Finman refers to as a "gene error" is actually something that occurs very infrequently. It has to be propagated and developed by selective breeding until it is expressed at a high level.
Then, since drones receive all of their DNA from their mother, her drones can be used to spread her genes to the progeny of virgin queens they mate with. The problem is; these drones are usually out-numbered and the potential improvement is diluted. So, you have to improve the odds by increasing the number of drones. The simplest way of doing this (since the selected queens laying-ability is limited) is to raise lots of daughters and use these to produce the drones. This is what happens on island mating stations with 4a mating (where the selected queen is the grand-mother of the drones).
As I said earlier, I will over-winter ~100 of these and re-stock colonies in apiaries every 1-2 miles so, within that area, a lot of the drones available to virgin queens will come from my stock. Of course, there are other beekeepers in the area and I can only seek to out-number their drones so that virgin queens have a greater chance of mating with a larger number of my drones.
It is a numbers-game. Eventually, you reach a tipping-point where the influence from my drones will have a real difference in the local population. Local mating enthusiasts already are saying their queens are performing better - they don't realise why ;-)

 

[B+.]

I did not failed, but you failed.

You mean that the Queen mate with hive's own drones. That is bad.

Actually you cannot say with whom they mate.

No. That is completely wrong. Each year the queens selected are different and unrelated. It is part of a programme I have worked on for a long time. I am just increasing the number of queens I over-winter.
As I said above, it is a numbers game - you just have to increase the drone population with drones from a selected pool so that there is a greater chance that virgins mate with these "special" drones (ideally several of them).

 

[Finman]

No. That is completely wrong. Each year the queens selected are different and unrelated. ).

Yes but you speak about your own breeding system and Island mating. IT is rare in Britain. You have 100 quality hives and it has nothing to do with ordinary 2-hive beekeeping on mongrel mating area.

I know genetics enough to keep bees. You do not need to correct my every sentence

 

[B+.]

Yes but you speak about your own breeding system and Island mating. IT is rare in Britain. You have 100 quality hives and it has nothing to do with ordinary 2-hive beekeeping on mongrel mating area.

I know genetics enough to keep bees. You do not need to correct my every sentence

I do when you are selective about what you say. I can do that to make my point too.
The truth is: if nobody ever talks about how breeders work, it will always be as you describe it. By talking openly, I am merely passing on some of my knowledge so that others can do the same.

 

[Finman]

By talking openly, I am merely passing on some of my knowledge so that others can do the same.

We had this year a German specialist beekeeper, who told about German bee breeding and hobby beekeepers. In Germany even hobby beekeepers must follow the procedure what you describe about your bee breeding. Only Carniolan race is allowed and it must bee special breed. I do not remember, what state of Germany that is.

 

[Finman]

The truth is: if nobody ever talks about how breeders work, it will always be as you describe it. .

You out there speak so much rubbish that it is too if some one speaks truth.
Everything is perfect, but I read between lines how guys keep their swarm queens.
If I say that buy a qood Queen, half of forum start to laugh.

Problem is not mine , not at all.

 

[eltalia]

(edit)
It is a numbers-game. Eventually, you reach a tipping-point where the influence from my drones
will have a real difference in the local population. Local mating enthusiasts already are saying
their queens are performing better - they don't realise why ;-)

Following the biology nobody could logically disagree with the theory - and whilst
I know of just one working example in Aussie - maybe two if one believes the breeder(s)
propaganda - it is questionable as to the practical outcome you are conveying as is it
possible to operate in such isolation in village England..?... or more of wishfull thinking
borne of faith in progressive biology.

Bill

 

[B+.]

Following the biology nobody could logically disagree with the theory - and whilst
I know of just one working example in Aussie - maybe two if one believes the breeder(s)
propaganda - it is questionable as to the practical outcome you are conveying as is it
possible to operate in such isolation in village England..?... or more of wishfull thinking
borne of faith in progressive biology.

Bill

Ok. The truth is...this takes time. However, every queen you "convert" becomes an advocate for your cause...what I mean is: if a queen mates with 3 of my drones and 12 of someone elses, that means 20% (1 in 5 - which is not unreasonable in year 1) of her female progeny will carry some of the material from my drones in her brood). The sperm is thoroughly mixed in the queens spermatheca, so, that will appear throughout the queens useful life.
Now, if she produces queens, you're looking at 1 in 5 having some degree of influence....but, that is cummulative...so, her virgin queens go off to mate and, again, mate with drones from my line...so, gradually, the local queens are influenced, to a greater or lesser degree, by my drones.
That's the idea.

Whether this is possible to do in isolation....I doubt it unless you are prepared to put significant resources behind it. It really needs a group to share the burden if they are just 2-3 hive owners. I am realistic about that and we do have a small group doing that already.

 

[eltalia]

No doubt at all the 'lineage' aimed for is cumalative, it is whether among a few localised
apiarys in say a 10mile radius one can maintain soverignity that where the 'project' falls
over. You only need one newcomer bringing a dozen diverse colonys into the area and your
definitive efforts are shot to *****, or one of your group to miss a step once.
The Rottnest Island project avoids that probability in selective isolation - I provide a loose
look into that operation. The Kangaroo Island "pure Liguruan Queen" claim is highly
questionable for exactly the reasons stated above - up until legisalation some time back it
was the case any amount of either queens or colonys were brought to the Island in
'improving' the bees. A similar story is attached to the AMM bees brought into Tasmania.
Oddly enough it is widely accepted those bees are now geneticly diverse yet a new wave of
entrprenures hang off the KI myth of isolation.
The breeder we used to buy our requeen stocks from - back in the day - operated roughly
how you describe, I personally assisted in setting that "clear zone" in relocating ferals, and
is how our apiary then got started. Some years my senior, after better than 49years as a well
respected supplier of a line of modified Italians he no longer warrants supply is his 'line' as
the bubble that was then around his operation was breached back in 2005 with urban sprawl.
Which brings another aspect to your project - as you can restrict other facets of your
beekeeping to strive to achieve what you hope for but from factors not in your
control it will get shot to ***** inside of two seasons, leaving you with nought but a memory.

Bill

--
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/rott...est-queen-bees-for-honey-supply-ng-b88639559z
http://www.users.on.net/~hogbay/hogbay2.htm
https://www.nature.com/articles/hdy199546

 

[B+.]

you can restrict other facets of your
beekeeping to strive to achieve what you hope for but from factors not in your
control it will get shot to ***** inside of two seasons, leaving you with nought but a memory.

The plan I outlined is a gross oversimplification of what I really do. If you had the time and interest, you could look back through my posts and see what I mean. I don't suppose you will though.