What do you want or expect from your bees?

[eltalia]

The plan I outlined is a gross oversimplification of what I really do. If you had the time and
interest, you could look back through my posts and see what I mean.
I don't suppose you will though.

Whooooa back... you're going off on a backroad there - my dialogue was intended to convey
experience, no fee, nor expection neither. Offered with the thought I'd come across one who
actuallty knows the topic. You'll do whatever, no business of mine, and good luck with it.

Bill

 

[B+.]

Whooooa back... you're going off on a backroad there - my dialogue was intended to convey
experience, no fee, nor expection neither. Offered with the thought I'd come across one who
actuallty knows the topic. You'll do whatever, no business of mine, and good luck with it.

Bill

Apologies for the curt response. It has been my experience on here that people are quick to criticize, even without knowing the full story.

The bulk of my breeding work involves instrumentally inseminated or island mated Amc from the BeeBreed propulation (www.beebreed.eu). You can see the sort of stuff I get involved in my photo album (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751 ) and on my Twitter page (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc ). As you will see, it is quite serious bee breeding
I collected 25 sealed cells yesterday to go into my incubator and grafted 60 more. These are all destined to become open mated queens to populate apiaries in sister groups - usually 20 per apiary spaced 1-2 miles apart. I replace these on a rolling programme so they maintain a stock of high-quality pure carnica drones. I have already produced daughters from other queens this year
The drones will be used to inseminate daughters of a different line belonging to a member of the group. This will raise the breeding value in everything except honey production, which can be addressed in the next generation

 

[eltalia]

Ahhhh... okay, throwing AI (II) into the mix changes much.
I shall indeed go check this out... that level of production is well
beyond my experience, practical 0r theory wise - trust that.
/waves/

Bill

 

[Murox]

Thanks B+ and Etalia for expanding things, lots of food for thought and links for all.
What is it about AmC that makes it worthy and special for you ?

 

[B+.]

What is it about AmC that makes it worthy and special for you ?

There are many things. Some relating to the bee itself and some relating to the selective breeding process.
I am quite numerate and have a background in large systems development (degrees in IT, Accounting and Finance with a Masters in Business Administration too) so a rational approach appeals to me. The testing process used by BeeBreed (http://www.ibrabee.org.uk/files/JAR/JAR 50 - 53/JAR 52/52 (1)/JAR 52.1.07.pdf ) is based on our best understanding of honeybee biology and is entirely rational. While some people seem to want beekeeping to appear a "dark art" and bee breeding to appear the darkest of them all, the groups I work with focus on explaining complex matters and helping people to understand what happens and why. They also share rather than hoard breeding material.
As for the bee, even Brother Adam noted its docility, disease resistance and productivity. Unfortunately, he looked at unimproved carnica and tarred them as itinerant swarmers. Nothing could be further from the truth. The BeeBreed population has been selectively bred for generations to remove this undesirable trait and further improve its desirable ones. That is not to say that all carnica have been developed this way. Only that those I work with have. Those who have viewed my photo album (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751 ) will be familiar with the sort of performance I see. It isn't a fluke, but the consequence of hard work and dedication over many generations. That is why I say in my tag line that I am "standing on the shoulders of giants" - both in terms of the development of the bees natural traits and the theory that underlies the development method. Carnica is a lovely bee to work with. In its pure form, it is incredibly docile and productive - but, it is the docility that appeals to me the most.

There are some videos that give an idea what I am talking about here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7RqXJD4_w&list=PLbr7jvL12x96CATXF3u59e_lvLETOD6Vq&index=4&t=0s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCcbj1Gv9UM&list=PLbr7jvL12x96CATXF3u59e_lvLETOD6Vq&index=2 )

 

[Murox]

Docility is a huge benefit, especially I would imagine in any suburban setting. Have you observed any minus points regarding their abilities to function well in UK's soggy maritime climate?

I knew that Brother Adam had noted its virtues and I know AmC is well regarded all over mainland europe. Its the one race I seriously wondered about when I returned to the UK and rekindled my own interest in bees.

 

[Ian123]

There’s some big breeders all over the world using carnica and plenty in the States. Google kona queens

 

[Murox]

There’s some big breeders all over the world using carnica and plenty in the States. Google kona queens

That made for an interest "excursion", thanks for that

 

[Ian123]

Plenty of Kona queens came over here until mid 2000s ish forgot the exact date when small hive beetle got into the island

 

[B+.]

Docility is a huge benefit, especially I would imagine in any suburban setting. Have you observed any minus points regarding their abilities to function well in UK's soggy maritime climate?

I knew that Brother Adam had noted its virtues and I know AmC is well regarded all over mainland europe. Its the one race I seriously wondered about when I returned to the UK and rekindled my own interest in bees.

I keep hearing that from Amm-advocates who want to make a point but I don't see it at all. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Don't take my word for it though. Take a look at my photo album (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751 ) - I've seen anywhere up to 6 boxes (I use Langstroth deeps as brood boxes and supers). To be fair, that is in a nice agricultural area with plenty of forage up until July. Then there is a dearth until the ivy starts - but, they can fill a box if the weather stays fine. I believe in leaving what is in the brood box for them - so, it's enough to tide them over the dearth but they'll quickly find anything sweet. I've also seen them fill the lower box completely with pollen. So much so that the queen can be struggling to find somewhere to lay but, I rarely see them swarm (I had 1 last year so I can't say never).
If I had to find something to complain about, I'd say the boxes are too heavy. Isn't that a problem most beekeepers would be happy to have though?

 

[Beefriendly]

If I had to find something to complain about, I'd say the boxes are too heavy. Isn't that a problem most beekeepers would be happy to have though?

If I had a complaint it would be you keep dangling the carrot of your almost perfect bees and no commercial outlet to purchase them from....
Big Grin.

 

[B+.]

If I had a complaint it would be you keep dangling the carrot of your almost perfect bees and no commercial outlet to purchase them from....
Big Grin.

We've had this discussion before.
I do sell open-mated queens at a reasonable price. However, I will only supply II queens to members of the breeding group who have a commitment to breeding carnica. That isn't to be nasty. It's because every breeder in the group commits to testing around 1/3 of their test colonies on behalf of other breeders. That way, I get an impartial test and the tester gets access to stock from other breeders so they can more easily see the standard they should be working to. That helps to maintain a consistent standard of testing.

 

[Murox]

If I had a complaint it would be you keep dangling the carrot of your almost perfect bees and no commercial outlet to purchase them from....
Big Grin.

Your good humoured "prod" does seem to highlight an issue for "the average beekeeper". And I must say I totally 'get' what BF is doing/saying.

Originally Posted by Millet
A good honey crop from gentle bees is my goal..disease is not a problem with good Queens and neither is varroa if you know what you are doing..

That is probably what most folks really want. It seems that sourcing good Queens with the wanted characteristics is not very easy.
I don't think I have yet seen any sort of "advert" offering bees with those desirable traits (other than 'gumtree' type ads). I read lots about folk having bees with them but never see queens or even nucs offered that backs it up. Is there a reliance on "a secretive old boys network?"

 

[maddydog]

Your good humoured "prod" does seem to highlight an issue for "the average beekeeper". And I must say I totally 'get' what BF is doing/saying.

Originally Posted by Millet
A good honey crop from gentle bees is my goal..disease is not a problem with good Queens and neither is varroa if you know what you are doing..

That is probably what most folks really want. It seems that sourcing good Queens with the wanted characteristics is not very easy.
I don't think I have yet seen any sort of "advert" offering bees with those desirable traits (other than 'gumtree' type ads). I read lots about folk having bees with them but never see queens or even nucs offered that backs it up. Is there a reliance on "a secretive old boys network?"

Beefarmer mag has an advert for keld brandstrup's that states "simply the best queens" & "your guarantee for a good season" Never had one so wouldn't know but I doubt he advertises on gumtree

 

[Anduril]

Beefarmer mag has an advert for keld brandstrup's that states "simply the best queens" & "your guarantee for a good season" Never had one so wouldn't know but I doubt he advertises on gumtree

I know one bee farmer who buys them, I have been through 2 hives with Keld Brandstrup's queens bought by hobby beekeepers. I'm definitely impressed, with what I have seen. At one time on the net there was a sheet by Brother Adam showing all the different attributes to the different races he dealt with. I have one apiary dedicated to Buckfast and my others are hybrids but I am going down the AMM route this year, after recommendations last year. AMC I haven't tried, but keeping an open mind as I know one beekeeper who has them

 

[B+.]

Your good humoured "prod" does seem to highlight an issue for "the average beekeeper". And I must say I totally 'get' what BF is doing/saying.

I think Prof Ruttner summed it up very well when he differentiated between the economic value of a queen and the breeding value. The economic value is limited to the financial value of the products of her colony (honey sales, wax, etc) but the breeding value is much greater. For example, a pedigree racehorse might run in a number of races. It might even win some prize money - it is through this performance that its breeding value is judged. When the racehorse retires it may go out to stud, producing offspring that have far greater value because of how they can reasonably be expected to perform (based on the performance of their parents).
"The average beekeeper" is looking for economic value. Nothing more. The breeder has the knowledge and skill to bring together the dam and sire so that the offspring has the highest breeding value.

 

[Bosleeu]

Not using queen excluders was the best thing I ever did. Totally agree.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[foghornleghorn]

If I had a complaint it would be you keep dangling the carrot of your almost perfect bees and no commercial outlet to purchase them from....
Big Grin.

The island mated celle line carnies are pretty much on a par with my buckfast for everything bar spring buildup. They had a 2-3 frame smaller cluster and were slower to get going in spring while the buckfast of similar cluster size ploughed on

 

[B+.]

The island mated celle line carnies are pretty much on a par with my buckfast for everything bar spring buildup. They had a 2-3 frame smaller cluster and were slower to get going in spring while the buckfast of similar cluster size ploughed on

How many did you test?
I once did a trial of 5 sisters from Buckfast Freidrichskoog against 5 Neuwerk and 5 Torfhaus-mated Celle line. This is still quite a small-scale trial but it was enough to show me that consistency was important if you ever intended to keep more than a handful of colonies (the workload would become too much if you had to inspect every colony every week).
Of the Celle line, island mated were consistently more uniform than mountain-mated and they developed colonies more-or-less-the same size as most of the Buckfasts. There was one Buckfast, however, that out-performed everything. The stack was so big that I had to build a platform to reach the top. Towards the end of the season, it swarmed. It was the only one that did.
Now, if I had an apiary full of colonies like this, I would get a huge crop - but, I would have to spend all my time managing that one apiary. That is fine if you only have a couple of hives - but not on a larger scale.
It's difficult to draw too many conclusions from this but I decided that I would rather have relative uniformity than massive colonies that I didn't have the time to look after.
I have moved on from Celle line. These are definitely aimed at the mass-market compared to the queens I use now but they are a good introduction to what carnica is capable of (based on over 15 years experience).

 

[foghornleghorn]

How many did you test?
I once did a trial of 5 sisters from Buckfast Freidrichskoog against 5 Neuwerk and 5 Torfhaus-mated Celle line. This is still quite a small-scale trial but it was enough to show me that consistency was important if you ever intended to keep more than a handful of colonies (the workload would become too much if you had to inspect every colony every week).
Of the Celle line, island mated were consistently more uniform than mountain-mated and they developed colonies more-or-less-the same size as most of the Buckfasts. There was one Buckfast, however, that out-performed everything. The stack was so big that I had to build a platform to reach the top. Towards the end of the season, it swarmed. It was the only one that did.
Now, if I had an apiary full of colonies like this, I would get a huge crop - but, I would have to spend all my time managing that one apiary. That is fine if you only have a couple of hives - but not on a larger scale.
It's difficult to draw too many conclusions from this but I decided that I would rather have relative uniformity than massive colonies that I didn't have the time to look after.
I have moved on from Celle line. These are definitely aimed at the mass-market compared to the queens I use now but they are a good introduction to what carnica is capable of (based on over 15 years experience).

Have 5 of the celle line, one started cells and honey has been pretty much the same as the buckfast.
They build combs more readily and down to the base of the frame but I don't like the way they wintered. They survived fine but a hungrier bee is of benefit here to clear excess ivy honey (so i dont have to) and being able to start pulling off nucs a bit earlier is a plus for me.

Edit to say. You're weather is much more continental than mine so that is probably why this difference occurs