Feeding Bees – Why? When? Where? How?

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understanding_bees

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The subject of “feeding bees” has received much attention, from many people, over a very long period of time. Many opinions have been expressed, and these have even led to disagreement.

I have suggested four questions, “Why? When? Where? How?” I could even suggest a fifth question - “What?” What should we feed to them?

If we did not feed them at all, the bees would eat honey which they have stored. So the question of What? actually becomes “What other food could we provide for them if they do not have enough honey?” Perhaps the real question should be “Why should we feed them at all?”

Bees are being kept in many parts of the world, and some of these places have climates where feral bees could not survive at all – for example places which have very cold winters. In situations like these it becomes very easy to understand that bees need assistance through the winter – they need extra food to keep themselves warm enough through the cold of winter. But sometimes they need to be provided with food because their keeper may have removed too much of their stored treasure of “liquid gold”.

The almost universal answer which is given is to use sugar – sucrose – whether that is refined from sugarcane or sugarbeet. The recommendation is also to use white sugar, and not raw sugar. But then the question becomes: “Should we use syrup, or fondant, or candy or . . . . . ?” And then, “If we feed syrup, what concentration should it be? 1:1? or 2:1? or something else?”

For those who want to feed fondant, there are warnings (or at least cautions) about the toxicity of Hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) to bees. There are also cautions about the use of baker’s fondant which includes ingredients which we enjoy, but which may not be helpful to bees. And then there is the very real consideration of how much time, care, and effort which is required by anyone who wishes to make fondant for their bees. I know that at least some beekeepers consider that fondant-making is a labour-consuming process.

For those who have decided that their bees need to be fed, the question has often been asked, “When should I feed?” Should it be in the last few weeks before winter? Should it be in Spring? It is known that bees may ignore syrup which has been provided for them if the syrup becomes too cool for them. When syrup remains within the reach of the bees but they ignore it because it is too cool, the syrup may become mouldy and thus may be unusable even it it was warmed again. There is also the concern of syrup being stored by the bees and capped as fake honey.

When bees have sufficient stored honey, and do not need to be fed, it will have a moisture level which is consistent with honey which is harvested. The bees need a source of water to dilute it before they consume it. Likewise, when bees are fed fondant, or candy, or granulated sugar they need water to dissolve it before they can consume it. If bees have access to their own stored honey they will use it when they are not able to forage for nectar. If they are able to gather nectar, they will do so, and use the nectar for their immediate food requirements, rather than just rely on their stored honey.

Beekeepers who supply fondant for their bees leave a supply of it above the honey frames so that the bees can have ready access to it through the cold winter months. Sugar in solid form is usable by the bees, even though syrup may be ignored by them in the same time period.

It is a well established fact that bees will feed on granular sugar, although the observation has been made that bees will sometimes remove it from their hive. I have found that if granular sugar has been moistened, and then been compacted into a suitable tray, then it will dry out to a hard “cake” which the bees will feed from. If the grains of sugar are “cemented together” the bees do not remove them from the hive. I read very recently of a beekeeper using syrup to moisten granulated sugar, to produce hard blocks of caked sugar. The method is very simple, and requires only little effort. The resulting sugar cakes can be placed on the hive frames in the same way as fondant. They can be left in place in the hive throughout the winter time when feeding may be required. The sugar cakes will be maintained at a temperature where the bees have easy access to them. The bees will feed on them when they do not have sufficient stores of their own. I have come to the conclusion that this kind of sugar cake may have more advantages than other methods of feeding sugar to bees.

Years ago I enjoyed watching Professor Julius Sumner Miller as he presented many different demonstrations of a scientific nature, in a TV program which was titled, “Why Is It So?”. He died in 1987, so it is possible that some readers of this forum may not have heard of him. The following two paragraphs quote a couple of his memorable pieces of advice.

What we do, if we are successful, is to stir interest in the matter at hand, awaken enthusiasm for it, arouse curiosity, kindle a feeling, fire up the imagination.

The intellectual process must be stirred. A feeling for knowledge for its own sake must be engendered. Learning will then be an exciting adventure which few can escape, nor will many wish to. And it will bring the spirit to a great awakening which can likely last a lifetime.


A quick Google search has provided this brief introduction to him:

Julius Sumner Miller

Why is it so? - the ground-breaking TV series with the enigmatic Professor Julius Sumner Miller - ran on the ABC from 1963 to 1986. ... series, and made them available for twenty first century enjoyment - over both dialup or broadband connections. Now you too can watch some 'enchanting experiments' with the good professor!

Julius Sumner Miller was an American physicist and television personality. He was born on May 17, 1909 in Billerica, Massachusetts, USA, and died on April 14, 1987 in San Jose, California, USA. He was an actor and writer, known for The Hilarious House of Frightenstein (1971), Why Is It So? (1963) and The Don Lane Show (1975). He was married to Alice Brown


At least some of those programs are still available on Youtube.
 
Monster post! Veers a bit close to just being a stream of consciousness (couple of glasses of wine imbibed first perhaps?), but yes, these are all issues.

As for "sugar cakes", interesting idea, but fondant seems like it would be much easier for the bees to process, and there's no risk of it being removed from the hive (and the HMF nonsense has been debunked by Prof Apiarist), so I'll stick to that.
 
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Sugar cakes were used with package bees, when they were sent long distancies without combs. If you are going to sell package bees...
 
Monster post! Veers a bit close to just being a stream of consciousness (couple of glasses of wine imbibed first perhaps?), but yes, these are all issues.

As for "sugar cakes", interesting idea, but fondant seems like it would be much easier for the bees to process, and there's no risk of it being removed from the hive (and the HMF nonsense has been debunked by Prof Apiarist), so I'll stick to that.
If I just said that I think that sugar cakes were best, without giving reasons why, you might be entitled to ask for my reasons. I did not need any liquid refreshment other than a cup of coffee. Are you admitting that you need something stronger?
As to any suggestion that bees might find fondant easier to process? Please provide support for this idea.
I find your suggestion about "HMF nonsense" most strange. There have been many warnings, by many people, about the toxicity of HMF to bees. Are you saying that they are all wrong?
 
I find your suggestion about "HMF nonsense" most strange. There have been many warnings, by many people, about the toxicity of HMF to bees. Are you saying that they are all wrong?

Extraordinarily high levels of HMF are toxic to bees (in the same way that extraordinarily high levels of virtually anything are toxic to any living creature). Anything lower than extraordinarily high levels has no effect at all.

But no-one has ever demonstrated that bakers fondant even has high levels of HMF, never mind extraordinarily high levels. And you would think that the "bee fondant" manufacturers would have paid for this to be tested and proved, if it was the case. And they noticeably haven't.

I wouldn't make fondant myself at home, because life is too short, and I believe that animal feed should be made by professionals (apart from basic syrup). And I can buy it cheaply

But I will defer to the expert:

Hydroxymethylfurfural - The Apiarist

"I use standard Baker’s fondant. It costs about £8-12 for 12.5 kg depending how much you need. I’ve used this type of fondant for a decade for 90% of my colony feeding (and 100% of my autumn feeding). I’ve never seen any adverse effects from using this type of fondant for my bees.

I simply do not believe some of the negative marketing that is used to promote BeeCentric fondant™ costing £36 for 12.5 kg. It’s not that I can’t afford this and it’s certainly not because I don’t care about my bees. I simply choose to trust experience over carefully-worded marketing ‘information’.

To convince me they’d need to publish the HMF levels in their products. They might be lower than bog-standard Baker’s fondant.

And I’d also want to know the HMF levels in standard Baker’s fondant.

If they were significantly higher, are they anywhere near high enough to damage my bees?"
 
As to any suggestion that bees might find fondant easier to process? Please provide support for this idea.

Common sense?

In fondant, the sugar crystals have been melted and broken down so the resulting paste can be "licked".

Bees don't have teeth, but even for us humans who do, rank the following in terms of "effort" to process in your mouth and stomach:

a) drinking a sugary drink,
b) a bowl of ice cream
c) a solid lump of sugar

Clearly, A is easier to process than B, which is easier to process than C. Same with bees. Syrup is easiest to process, then fondant, then sugar crystals.
 
You say then.
Thank you Finman, for your request. I said in my earlier post that “I have come to the conclusion that this kind of sugar cake may have more advantages than other methods of feeding sugar to bees.

I did not say that sugar cakes are best, but that I believe that there are more reasons, and better reasons, to choose sugar cakes when bees need assistance with feeding. Here goes:

Sugar syrup is ignored by bees when it is cold, but sugar cakes are used.

Sugar syrup can go mouldy, but sugar cakes do not.

Bees can drown in syrup, but not with sugar cakes.

Bees can store sugar syrup, and cap it to make fake honey, but not so with sugar cakes.

Fondant requires long and tedious processing for its manufacture, sugar cakes cake be prepared easily in a few minutes.

Fondant is much more expensive to purchase than sugar.

There is risk of presence of HMF in any fondant which has been heated during its preparation, but sugar cakes do not require any heating.

Fondant can be given to the bees throughout the winter period, but so can sugar cakes.

Bakers fondant, sometimes recommended and used to feed bees, may contain ingredients unhelpful to bees.

I have just given nine reasons why I favour the use of sugar cakes.

What reasons might there be why sugar cakes are not as helpful as I think that they are?
 
Syrup is the best. Dry sugar and fondants need always diluting water, what bees must carry outside. When you give strong syrup 2:1, bees start water foraging. I can see that when bees visit in water pond.

Understanding, in this chain you are offering all kind of wisdom, which are true not at all. Sad to say that. Harmfull chain.
 
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I see no reason not to make sugar cakes except they are a bit of a faff but as below I have laid out my reasons for preferring fondant.

Sugar syrup is ignored by bees when it is cold, but sugar cakes are used.
Fondant is not ignored

Sugar syrup can go mouldy, but sugar cakes do not.
Nor does fondant

Bees can drown in syrup, but not with sugar cakes.
Not in fondant

Bees can store sugar syrup, and cap it to make fake honey, but not so with sugar cakes.
I don't feed fondant when I have supers on so any "fake honey" wouldn't be harvested.

Fondant requires long and tedious processing for its manufacture, sugar cakes cake be prepared easily in a few minutes.
I buy fondant so all I have to do is open the packet but sugar cakes require time and kitchen facilities for you to make them.

Fondant is much more expensive to purchase than sugar.
The best price for sugar I could find locally was 62.5p/kg the fondant costs 64p. - hardly "much more expensive"

There is risk of presence of HMF in any fondant which has been heated during its preparation, but sugar cakes do not require any heating.
As stated before could we have some evidence of this?

"Fondant can be given to the bees throughout the winter period,"
but so can sugar cakes.

Bakers fondant, sometimes recommended and used to feed bees, may contain ingredients unhelpful to bees.
If this was the case I would not buy THAT fondant

I have just given nine reasons why I favour the use of sugar cakes.

What reasons might there be why sugar cakes are not as helpful as I think that they are?

I certainly don't want to start up another fondant thread but please get your facts right before such an emphatic post!
 
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Everything can happen with bees, but you can use your brain.

I have never used fondants neither sugar cake in 60 years. I feed syrup, I can pour it directly to combs or I move food frames from another hive.
 
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I see no reason not to make sugar cakes except they are a bit of a faff but as below I have laid out my reasons for preferring fondant.



I certainly don't want to start up another fondant thread but please get your facts right before such an emphatic post!
It seems amazing to me how changeable some of the contributors to this discussion thread have been in their various comments.
It does no credit for people to try to support their argument by misquoting and misconstruing what I wrote in my earlier posts. Newbeeneil, you are guilty of giving false evidence. You have inserted words into what is ostensibly a quote from my post. I did not say that fondant is ignored. It does not help your cause, or your viewpoint, to give false evidence.
You say that sugar cakes are a bit of faff. If that is true, then what is fondant? Fondant requires much more effort than sugar cakes - so could it perhaps be said that fondant is a whole lot of tedious drudgery for pretty much the same result?
I said that sugar syrup can go mouldy, but sugar cakes do not. I did not make any criticism of fondant in this regard, but you have taken the liberty of misconstruing my post by inserting the words:
"Nor does fondant". Shame on you!
From my point of view, fondant and sugar cakes are probably as attractive as each other to bees. I did not say or imply that all fondants have high levels of HMF. My initial awareness about the possible negative effects of HMF in fondant was given by what were ostensibly helpful discussions on this forum.
The whole purpose of my original post, and my follow-up comments, was to offer suggestions based on my own experience.
For all those beekeepers who wish to feed fondant (of whatever type) to their bees, you have the power to choose. I only wished to share information which I have found to be helpful in providing a simple, effective, low cost method of feeding bees through a period when the bees most need a boost to their food supply.
 
Apart from all the other bits this really made me chuckle.
“Bees can store sugar syrup, and cap it to make fake honey, but not so with sugar cakes.”

What on earth do you think they do with it😂
 
Sugar syrup mould is easily remedied with a small amount of thymol added so not a very big issue. My bees in prep for the winter sabbatical will take down syrup or fondant readily before October's end add to bolster there already stored honey and ivy nectar should this damn rain cease.
 
Apart from all the other bits this really made me chuckle.
“Bees can store sugar syrup, and cap it to make fake honey, but not so with sugar cakes.”

What on earth do you think they do with it😂
Thank you, Ian, for your question.
Firstly, concerning the question of whether or not bees can store sugar syrup, to make fake honey. Do you agree that this is factual. If it is factual, then my suggestion is valid. If this is not a factual statement, then why has this suggestion been accepted and promoted on other discussion threads on this forum?
Secondly, what (on earth!!) do I think that they do with it? There is a belief that bees will not use honey from their stores when nectar is available for them to forage. I do not know whether you have clear crown boards to enable you to easily observe your bees without disturbing them. If you do have clear crown boards, and if you have spent time observing the bees (I have), then you may have observed that they do not always feed on the sugar which has been provided for them. If they have brood, and sugar has been provided for them, then a higher proportion of foragers can be seen bringing in pollen. If sugar has not been provided, and they need to find nectar, a smaller proportion of bees will be seen bringing in pollen. This suggests that bees will use solid sugar for their immediate food requirements, rather than for storage in the honeycomb.
If you have clear evidence that bees use fondant as a source material for storing fake honey, then it may also be the case for sugar cakes (and vice versa). If you have clear evidence of this, please provide it, and I will happily learn from your advice.
 
Crikey, the season's hardly over yet.

It seems amazing to me how changeable some of the contributors to this discussion thread have been in their various comments.
It does no credit for people to try to support their argument by misquoting and misconstruing what I wrote in my earlier posts. Newbeeneil, you are guilty of giving false evidence. You have inserted words into what is ostensibly a quote from my post. I did not say that fondant is ignored. It does not help your cause, or your viewpoint, to give false evidence.
You say that sugar cakes are a bit of faff. If that is true, then what is fondant? Fondant requires much more effort than sugar cakes - so could it perhaps be said that fondant is a whole lot of tedious drudgery for pretty much the same result?
I said that sugar syrup can go mouldy, but sugar cakes do not. I did not make any criticism of fondant in this regard, but you have taken the liberty of misconstruing my post by inserting the words:
"Nor does fondant". Shame on you!
From my point of view, fondant and sugar cakes are probably as attractive as each other to bees. I did not say or imply that all fondants have high levels of HMF. My initial awareness about the possible negative effects of HMF in fondant was given by what were ostensibly helpful discussions on this forum.
The whole purpose of my original post, and my follow-up comments, was to offer suggestions based on my own experience.
For all those beekeepers who wish to feed fondant (of whatever type) to their bees, you have the power to choose. I only wished to share information which I have found to be helpful in providing a simple, effective, low cost method of feeding bees through a period when the bees most need a boost to their food supply.
@Newbeeneil was, IMO fairly, responding to your post where you went on about sugar cakes being better than all other methods. He pointed out that fondant basically matches all of your claims about sugar cakes...

Feed your bees what you like but don't get wound up about it if people engage with you in discussion and refute what you're saying, the forum's a forum (and quite a good one) not a soap box.

@Finman I'd be interested to know whether you ever have to add extra feed in the middle or end of winter and if so do you still use syrup?
 
It seems amazing to me how changeable some of the contributors to this discussion thread have been in their various comments.
It does no credit for people to try to support their argument by misquoting and misconstruing what I wrote in my earlier posts. Newbeeneil, you are guilty of giving false evidence. You have inserted words into what is ostensibly a quote from my post. I did not say that fondant is ignored. It does not help your cause, or your viewpoint, to give false evidence.
You say that sugar cakes are a bit of faff. If that is true, then what is fondant? Fondant requires much more effort than sugar cakes - so could it perhaps be said that fondant is a whole lot of tedious drudgery for pretty much the same result?
I said that sugar syrup can go mouldy, but sugar cakes do not. I did not make any criticism of fondant in this regard, but you have taken the liberty of misconstruing my post by inserting the words:
"Nor does fondant". Shame on you!
From my point of view, fondant and sugar cakes are probably as attractive as each other to bees. I did not say or imply that all fondants have high levels of HMF. My initial awareness about the possible negative effects of HMF in fondant was given by what were ostensibly helpful discussions on this forum.
The whole purpose of my original post, and my follow-up comments, was to offer suggestions based on my own experience.
For all those beekeepers who wish to feed fondant (of whatever type) to their bees, you have the power to choose. I only wished to share information which I have found to be helpful in providing a simple, effective, low cost method of feeding bees through a period when the bees most need a boost to their food supply.

"Newbeeneil, you are guilty of giving false evidence. You have inserted words into what is ostensibly a quote from my post. I did not say that fondant is ignored."
All I inserted in your quotation was the "" and made it bold. - essentially I agree with you :giggle:

"You say that sugar cakes are a bit of faff. If that is true, then what is fondant? Fondant requires much more effort than sugar cakes - so could it perhaps be said that fondant is a whole lot of tedious drudgery for pretty much the same result?"
As I said, I buy fondant at 1.5p /kg more than sugar and I don't have to do anything to it apart from unwrap it! So hardly tedious drudgery?

"I said that sugar syrup can go mouldy, but sugar cakes do not. I did not make any criticism of fondant in this regard, but you have taken the liberty of misconstruing my post by inserting the words:
"Nor does fondant". Shame on you!"

Again I was agreeing with you 😊
 
I use Lidl's sugar only. You others can use what ever you want. I have no problems with sugar or with sugat ethics. What only means to me is the cost.

Bees take care themselves about prosessing. I do not need to invent any theories in it. They know it without me.

What I advice, do not make bees process syrup or honey twice.

When bees move syrup from feeding box into capped combs, processing has taken 24% from original sugar.
 
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