Dead colony: would you reuse the super full of stores?

[fian]

By twist, do you mean begin to fail through varroa, or supersedure? Delayed treatment may cause the problem, but I don't see how it would induce supersedure.

No, I was referring to the bees' apparent need to change the queen, as if the treatment had reduced the ability to perceive the mandibular pheromone and prompted a replacement. It is unlikely that there was a critical amount of varroa as the donor hives had been treated a month earlier.

 

[ericbeaumont]

the bees' apparent need to change the queen, as if the treatment had reduced the ability to perceive the mandibular pheromone

Depends on bees' ability to perceive the chemical; as they use chemicals regularly themselves, it is conceivable.

unlikely that there was a critical amount of varroa

Provided Amari's varroa had not developed resistance to Amitraz.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Depends on bees' ability to perceive the chemical; as they use chemicals regularly themselves, it is conceivable.


Provided Amari's varroa had not developed resistance to Amitraz.

It would be interesting to see what varroa are in the worker cells that were patchy @Amari

 

[Sutty]

It could be interesting to suspend a cupful or two of dead bees in a generous amount of water then pour them through a mesh small enough to hold back the bees but plenty large enough for varroa to pass, then filter again through a fine mesh & look if there are loads of varroa

 

[Amari]

We can rule out isolation then, it’s hard to find a marked dead queen I know I don’t think it was varroa either from your first post august treatment of apivar when varroa is at its highest a November vape hmm was there brood cappings on the inspection board following treatment mite drop etc?

On 12 Sept "red Q seen". On 20 Oct I recorded "Light mite fall". This would mean scanty mites on the board. I didn't record cappings.
On 12 Oct I recorded "Wasp invasion +". 20 Oct "Less wasp invasion". Wasps were bad last autumn, from memory this hive was perhaps 3rd worst out of seven colonies - maybe indicating the colony was already failing?

Remove pupae or larvae with tweezers and let us know what you find.

There's a challenge: no tweezers in the household. Used fine nail scissors to extract pupae = well formed near-adult bees (see pics below: 1. typical comb. 2. extracted pupae (sorry no macro on my iPhone 6)

It would be interesting to see what varroa are in the worker cells that were patchy @Amari

It could be interesting to suspend a cupful or two of dead bees in a generous amount of water then pour them through a mesh small enough to hold back the bees but plenty large enough for varroa to pass, then filter again through a fine mesh & look if there are loads of varroa

Interesting thought! Unfortunately I have tipped all the dead bees on to the garden. Among the piles of bees there were several dead wasps

 

[ericbeaumont]

caps of the very sparse sealed brood had no perforations

First photo shows about 10 perforated caps, though not particularly ragged, I agree. Also shows one emerging bee with it's tongue sticking out, a sure sign of varroa.

Hard to say for sure, but wings on a couple in the second photo look deformed.

 

[drex]

I can see a fair bit of mite excrement on the mouth of some of the brood cells. Giles has already chucked that old brood comb. I would re use the supers

 

[ericbeaumont]

Question: would you reuse the super with the capped stores?

Yes.
If it's damp or crystallised and you want bees to clear or eat it, this is a useful method: Clearing Stores From Honey Bee Combs

 

[fian]

The varroa wiped out what little the wasps left behind.

 

[ericbeaumont]

The varroa wiped out what little the wasps left behind.

Yes, and if the supersedure had failed the colony would be disorganised and vulnerable to attack.

 

[Amari]

Yes.
If it's damp or crystallised and you want bees to clear or eat it, this is a useful method: Clearing Stores From Honey Bee Combs

Thanks. Interesting link describing placing super of stores below BB and creating temporary second hive entrance. Beekeeping manoeuvres get more and more complex!

 

[ericbeaumont]

manoeuvres get more and more complex!

Quite a quick job; I've used it in early spring before a flow starts, when they clear it quickly because the need is greatest.

 

[Sutty]

I'd have thought using it in spring has a higher risk of provoking robbing.
If robbing occurs what would be the best way of dealing with it? I'm thinking put a solid board over the lower box, remove most of the stores in it but leave a bit to finish being robbed & then wait until it's empty.
Any other thoughts?

 

[ericbeaumont]

using it in spring has a higher risk of provoking robbing

Not had that. As the original entrance is closed, bees must use the upper, next to the BB, and that can be as small as you like.

 

[Sutty]

Not had that. As the original entrance is closed, bees must use the upper, next to the BB, and that can be as small as you like.

I was meaning bees from other colonies robbing the relatively unprotected stores you want to be moved

 

[Amari]

Not had that. As the original entrance is closed, bees must use the upper, next to the BB, and that can be as small as you like.

Roger Patterson states;

• Put the box(es) with stores in you want to clean out on the floorboard, which should have the entrance left open.
• This is to divert returning bees to the top entrance, but still allowing access to the bottom entrance around the board.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Put the box(es) with stores in you want to clean out on the floorboard, which should have the entrance left open.

Oh, no, I don't do it that way, because although bees will clear out the stores pdq, foraging bees bringing pollen will continue to use the bottom entrance and dump pollen asap in the bottom box, like I do when coming indoors with muddy boots.

As spring pollen is needed upstairs (and to increase security) I close the bottom entrance, add an upper entrance (easy to take out the wall plug in an Abelo BB) and let them clear out the box below through the division hole. I must have misread Roger's instructions when I first used the method, or adapted it along the way.

 

[Antipodes]

I'd have thought using it in spring has a higher risk of provoking robbing.
If robbing occurs what would be the best way of dealing with it? I'm thinking put a solid board over the lower box, remove most of the stores in it but leave a bit to finish being robbed & then wait until it's empty.
Any other thoughts?

Intense robbing down here is usually in a dearth (which is now- except in the forests), so later in the season. I've never seen anything like it is at the moment for instance, and expect it to be bad right through until May. I don't see it so much in spring unless it is a really bad year.
I have a heap of marine ply split boards with a feeder size hole in them which I can put under the brood and on top of the stores to be cleared. They have a small entrance slot in them so I hope they'll work. I'll secure a piece of plastic from an ice-cream container over the feeder hole with then a smaller hole in the plastic. They'll find the new higher entrance soon enough...hopefully. I could leave a very small hole in the original entrance point, but probably not needed.
Thanks for the link Eric, I'm going to give this a go.

 

[Antipodes]

I was meaning bees from other colonies robbing the relatively unprotected stores you want to be moved

Bees tend not to like entrances being moved vertically but with the brood and a good number of bees right near the small access hole to the lowest box, I think robbing shouldn't be an issue. I can try it and report back. I did reverse Demarrees this season, and it's fascinating to see the bees find the new entrances. It doesn't take too long from what I've seen.

 

[Amari]

They'll find the new higher entrance soon enough...hopefully.

'.......especially with a sloping board just beneath the new entrance.'

Roger Patterson:

• Place a piece of plywood, or similar material, that is wider than the width of the bottom floor entrance against the front of the hive below the new top entrance, sloping towards the ground and resting on it. This is to divert returning bees to the top entrance, but still allowing access to the bottom entrance around the board

When making an upper entrance doing a Bailey comb exchange etc I use the redundant dagger board of the Mirror dinghy (long deceased) that I built with the 'help' of my sons, then aged c6-8, in the late 1970s