So what's the problem with Oxalic Acid then?

[Arfermo]

Subject closed - I am content that I know that what I am doing is done with maximum safety in mind and scaremongering is not acceptable.

 

[gavin]

Just to back up Rosti's comments, I also work in a lab. If we had to sublimate oxalic acid we would need the same air flow cabinet to draw the fumes away from the operator. You could argue that in the cold outside air when oxalic treatment is usually given the fumes will rapidly form small airborne crystals, so as long as you wear a tight-fitting fine particle face mask you ought to be OK. I wouldn't rely on air currents taking it away, and the plain dust masks readily available at DIY stores aren't really good enough.

I'm in the position of sometimes offering advice to Scottish beekeepers. I'd never recommend sublimation as although a few beekeepers might have the experience to know how to do it safely, it is a significant risk compared to dribbling a pre-made solution.

 

[Repwoc]

Subject closed - I am content that I know that what I am doing is done with maximum safety in mind and scaremongering is not acceptable.

What temperture does the OA reach in the vapouriser Arfermo?

 

[Arfermo]

Rooftops remarks were just plain stupid about people like me killing ourselves. He would no doubt enjoy the spectacle of course. What nobody amongst you doubters and 'elf and safety freaks has been able to point to is actual factual fatalities or other injurious effects arising from poor sublimation technique. I accept that trickling is simple and probably safer for those who take short cuts and ignore the basic procedures outlined in the operating instructions that almost invariably comes with the gadget. But even trickling is unsafe if one wants to gargle or spill the stuff for instance and I would also advise that making up ones own mixture as some novices might attempt is not that simple and is cetainly risky for the colony if one gets it wrong. That does not invalidate sublimation/evaporation as a more effective treatment given that one fumigates the whole hive top to bottom, can treat more than once unlike trickling, is much less invasive in application, especially using the modified system I have outlined, and that the hive is supposed to have all possible ventilation stuffed closed during the operation too. You do as you want. I know which method I have found to be best for me. OK?

 

[oliver90owner]

cyanide

There are lot out there who have used it and are still around. Me for one, on wasps nests.

Also have worked, a long time ago, with serious amounts of cyanide in the lab - with both flasks of antidote in front of me ready to mix and drink immediately in the event of a serious mishap. Thankfully never needed the antidote but it was always a sobering reminder as those flasks stood there all the time you were working with the cyanide....

It was the only thing you would be allowed by mouth as the components were seriously radioactive as well, which slightly complicated matters!

So oxalic acid fume is a pussy cat compared to some of the chemicals I have handled; just need to take the precautions very seriously and be sure not to breathe any fume - as I said earlier, the common sense part is the most important part, wear the gear.

Regards, RAB

 

[Repwoc]

RAB - Common sense and correct gear - good idea. But ...

A trained person in a lab equiped with relevant safety equipment and most likely in the company of other trained, competent and knowledgeable people (I bet there were even on-site medics where you worked) is in a somewhat different position to a novice (meaning not lab or chemistry trained) likely on his/her own in a field miles from anywhere handling potentially dangerous strong chemicals with unfamiliar equipment and procedures.

I'm not saying that beeks are incompetant people; just that mostly they come from different walks in life to us ex lab rats. There is far more potential risk of a nasty accident when dealing with vapourised OA than there is with the weak 3.2% soln. in syrup.

Just the thought of getting a lung full of OA vapour brings tears to my eyes.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've been following this thread with great interest. I am in my first year of keeping bees and my hives are on their third week of Apilife.
One question: How many beekeepers have actually come to grief dribbling oxalic?

 

[Leigh]

It is an established fact that dribbling oxalic acid is very injurious to health if dribbled from the mouth. As far as I know, a syringe is ok and probably the best option.

Vapourisers - never had any dealings with these, but you pays your money and makes your choice. It may just be that both methods are equally valid...so why argue?

 

[Heather]

First year, I didn't wear a mask when mixing my own solution, and developed a sore throat. My own fault and was dealing with measuring the OA powder on sensitive scales. Now wear mask and gloves - no goggles just extra mascara!
.
I always administer it slightly warm to my bees- never lost bees, great results with dead varroa, and bees went on to be healthy next year with active queens

 

[Arfermo]

cyanide

There are lot out there who have used it and are still around. Me for one, on wasps nests.

Also have worked, a long time ago, with serious amounts of cyanide in the lab - with both flasks of antidote in front of me ready to mix and drink immediately in the event of a serious mishap. Thankfully never needed the antidote but it was always a sobering reminder as those flasks stood there all the time you were working with the cyanide....

It was the only thing you would be allowed by mouth as the components were seriously radioactive as well, which slightly complicated matters!

So oxalic acid fume is a pussy cat compared to some of the chemicals I have handled; just need to take the precautions very seriously and be sure not to breathe any fume - as I said earlier, the common sense part is the most important part, wear the gear.

Regards, RAB

Thanks oliver90owner for your rather more rational and less emotive contribution to this thread. As far as I am concerned I have put my views forward as to the merits of evaporation and I will stand by that as the best for me - and for others who have more open minds than some who have contributed to this thread. I do not condemn trickling by the way but neither am I suicidal as the rather stupid (on this issue) Rooftops suggests.

 

[madasafish]

I have to say I would not keep anything in my house or garage that is as poisonous as oxalic acid.

Ok to use for those who are trained and careful. But as a fair % of the DIY population manage to injure themselves by refusing to take minimal precautions (like wearing dust masks when sanding) I think to suggest their use on a mass audience BB is rather reckless.

There are always idiots around who ignore instructions and take no precautions.. RTFM was not coined for nothing...

Just see the beekeepers who use no precautions at all when in a hurry and then find themselves in hospital through mass stings.

 

[oliver90owner]

Paracetamol, bleach, weedkiller, medications, to name just a few, if not used properly.

Even the oven used to be particularly lethal in the days of town gas.

Do you have a natural gas supply? Could be lethal! Even the electricity mains supply!

They are all made as safe as possible, but their will always be accidents, idiots and some of unsettled mind to misuse or abuse the otherwise 'safe' commodities.

Get real and live sensibly, is what I say.

RAB

 

[Arfermo]

Paracetamol, bleach, weedkiller, medications, to name just a few, if not used properly.

Even the oven used to be particularly lethal in the days of town gas.

Do you have a natural gas supply? Could be lethal! Even the electricity mains supply!

They are all made as safe as possible, but their will always be accidents, idiots and some of unsettled mind to misuse or abuse the otherwise 'safe' commodities.

Get real and live sensibly, is what I say.

RAB

and oxalic is not dangerous if sensible precautions are taken -RoofTops note.

 

[Repwoc]

Arfermo - I think the personal attacks are unnecessary.

 

[Arfermo]

Repwoc,
I couldn't agree more, were it not for the fact that some people say some puerile things that are too stupid to ignore and who need to put in their place. Sorry but that is the way I see it.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

Have a read of this then...
Evaporation of Oxalic acid - a safe method for the user?

 

[RoofTops]

Have a read of this then...
Evaporation of Oxalic acid - a safe method for the user?

It's nearly ten years old research and since then the lower risk trickling method has become the method of choice for many beekeepers. I don't need to wear a mask or have to carry round a lot of equipment other than a 30p syringe and an insulated mug to keep the syrup warm. Treating each hive take a few moments and no preparation of the hive is required. The loss of heat is minimal as it is only a few grams of hot air which floats up when the roof is removed and several kilogrammes of warm frames and bees quickly reheats the air when the roof is replaced.

There will always be those who want to stick with older methods of beekeeping - e.g. WBC hive etc., it doesn't stop them enjoying their beekeeping or getting good crops of honey, but life can be easier with a different hive design.

Same with OA application. Let the "foggers" fog on. Or throw insults around. I have a thick skin.

On a related note I was horrifed to hear from a beginner I know that their local association had "fogged" her hive several times during the summer using an OA evaporator. The hive was being kept in their branch apiary and this is their regime for varroa control. She had two supers of honey on the hive while this was going on.

Going back to one of my first posts on this thread, if an experienced and succesful beefarmer with 2,000+ colonies uses OA trickling then those with fewer hives and perhaps experience may wish to consider whose example are they going to follow.

 

[RoofTops]

________________________________

The above is a line drawn on this thread by me. I can recognise a lost cause when I see it.

 

[Arfermo]

Have a read of this then...
Evaporation of Oxalic acid - a safe method for the user?

I am amazed at the Fig 5 with the bloke standing there, no mask, goggles or whatever - "at quite a distance" I don't think. Despite the foreign accent in the text, it confirms my view that evaporation is not unafe if used properly. I would add that evapoaration enables one to effect several treatments to get the mite drop down to a very low level indeed and give the colony a head start in the new foraging season as a result. However, everything I have read about trickling makes it abundantly clear that only a single traetment is advised. I find the dichotomy strange to say the least but there it is - one and no more.
Sorry if I got a bit heated RoofTops and glad you now acknowledge that maybe you were indeed a little OTT with the scaremongering tone of your post. You stick to trickling, I'll do it my way. Incidentally, the kit is expensive if bought new but I got mine S/H for less than half including a 6v motorcycle battery. I have also modified the technique to greater effect too and have at least 2 local beeks who commission me to do their hives, particularly after catching swarms, all at my risk of course. Over and out.

 

[Queens59]

I think you have to consider the beeks you know, the beeks you respect, the hives you have seen, and the methods they use - then decide what YOU think...as such - seen Hivemaker's hives, talked to Hivemaker - like his attitude...NO OA for my girls...Then I can sleep at night knowing I have made my decision. Good thread though...standing by to be stoned...