So what's the problem with Oxalic Acid then?

[beebreeder]

Sorry Mark did'nt mean to cause confusion, this is just personal experience being shared, probably won't help the new beekeepers with their decision at all.
kev

 

[BKF Admin]

No problem,Its good to get as many views as possible as it will help members decide to treat or not.

 

[kazmcc]

I don't have a say yet. I do as our mentor tells me. I just don't understand why you have to treat so many times? I have read posts where their V drop was nil, but after OA there were hundreds? As a new beek, it does concern me. I suppose you would have to balance the problem out with risk of varroa damaging your colony when in high levels, with whether you treat with these chemicals / treatments. But, then again, as I said before...it has been posted that drop rate was minimal, after OA hundreds were found, so how on earth are you supposed to be able to tell?

I am sure I will be taught all this in the course of the year. I think of varroa as like fleas on cats. Surely someone will come up with a treatment like frontline, where it does no harm to the bee, but any mites that come into contact will die. Hopefully in my beekeeping lifetime.

 

[keithgrimes]

I don't have a say yet. I do as our mentor tells me. I just don't understand why you have to treat so many times? I have read posts where their V drop was nil, but after OA there were hundreds? As a new beek, it does concern me. I suppose you would have to balance the problem out with risk of varroa damaging your colony when in high levels, with whether you treat with these chemicals / treatments. But, then again, as I said before...it has been posted that drop rate was minimal, after OA hundreds were found, so how on earth are you supposed to be able to tell?

I am sure I will be taught all this in the course of the year. I think of varroa as like fleas on cats. Surely someone will come up with a treatment like frontline, where it does no harm to the bee, but any mites that come into contact will die. Hopefully in my beekeeping lifetime.

Quite a few beeks are working on developing Varroa tolerant bees. My view is that Darwin will be proved right yet again and in ten years or so varroa won't be an issue. But then again something else nasty will come along.

 

[Skyhook]

I don't have a say yet. I do as our mentor tells me. I just don't understand why you have to treat so many times? I have read posts where their V drop was nil, but after OA there were hundreds? As a new beek, it does concern me. I suppose you would have to balance the problem out with risk of varroa damaging your colony when in high levels, with whether you treat with these chemicals / treatments. But, then again, as I said before...it has been posted that drop rate was minimal, after OA hundreds were found, so how on earth are you supposed to be able to tell?

I am sure I will be taught all this in the course of the year. I think of varroa as like fleas on cats. Surely someone will come up with a treatment like frontline, where it does no harm to the bee, but any mites that come into contact will die. Hopefully in my beekeeping lifetime.

I think the point is that there are no treatments that are 100% effective. Say you have 2,000 mites, you treat and kill 1,800. 200 mites is no problem to the bees, but then of course they start building up again, after a while you have 2,000 again.
As for how you tell- I think the point is you cant always, you have to assume.

As for frontline, my dog always looks quite off-colour after treatment, but since she had one really bad infestation, we've realised that the alternative is worse.

 

[Skyhook]

Quite a few beeks are working on developing Varroa tolerant bees. My view is that Darwin will be proved right yet again and in ten years or so varroa won't be an issue. But then again something else nasty will come along.

Unfortunately, while the bees are evolving, so are the mites- and, since they have a shorter lifecycle (a few weeks, as opposed to 1 generation every 1-3 years), probably faster.

 

[gavin]

Unfortunately, while the bees are evolving, so are the mites- and, since they have a shorter lifecycle (a few weeks, as opposed to 1 generation every 1-3 years), probably faster.

Not necessarily! Bees carry a lot of variation on which selection can work. Populations of mites are rather uniform, genetically.

 

[MrB]

But then again something else nasty will come along.

Like SHB

 

[oliver90owner]

Just thymol.....in syrup....and on oasis.....very occasionally use formic if needed, but have not needed this for eight years now.

Hivemaker, It may appear, from this posting, that you have used thymol almost universallly for the last eight years? Or perhaps it was alongside other treatment regimes? Can you confirm your recent history on this continued assault on these mites?

You also said in the previous post on this thread My basis for not using oxalic it is that i found it severely knocked the colonies back in spring, and killed any with nosema soon after application.....

If it has been successful for that period of time and the other benefits are clearly obvious, this would indicate that thymol treatment is more than adequate for the control of the varroa mite in nearly all colonies - provided of course application and monitoring regimes, etc are up to scratch.

Regards, RAB

 

[Brosville]

Sorry to digress a teensie, but I must comment the following-

"Surely someone will come up with a treatment like frontline, where it does no harm to the bee"

"Spot on" treatments for dogs and cats are usually neonicotinoids, (known to be a deadly poison to bees - the only arguments being at what concentration, and the amount it's action is increased when mixed with other chemicals). When they first hit the market, we used them, and for the first time ever had dogs with health problems from which they'd never suffered before. We now won't have the damn stuff in the house, and use other methods - I would question that they "do no harm" to dogs and cats, and find it more than a touch ironic that it is being painted as "safe" in a thread about bees.....

 

[Hivemaker.]

Yes i almost universally use thymol,on pads, and again in syrup now...long story which i have written about in depth in the past about stopping feeding thymolised sugar syrup in 2001,the arrival of resistant mites, and only feeding fondant which of course contained no thymol...then going back to feeding thymolised syrup last winter.

 

[mbc]

"Surely someone will come up with a treatment like frontline, where it does no harm to the bee"

Bayvarol . Oh no , the mites developed resistance .Apistan Oh no etc.
Frontline. Oh no , the fleas etc.

Every varroa treatment I know of is 'cruel to be kind' . The cruelest inho is to treat with something which leaves a sub-lethal residue of poison in the comb for the bees to live with thereafter, closely followed by shook swarming ( how this can be classified as organic baffles me ) as for the others (oxalic, thymol, formic ) use the most suitable for the time of year you want to treat or for the time of year you discover you need to do something.
Many beeks in my neck of the woods have mininal mite drops this year and are hoping to get away with doing nawt

 

[Finman]

The bottom line - for queens - is has anyone noted queens living less long when oxalic is used?
Gavin
The one and only time I used OA the following spring I had more problems with either drone laying queens or very p

that problem has been veryfied carefully in researches and there are not problems with queen laying.

i do not have those problems, what beebreeder doubts

 

[oliver90owner]

kazmcc said: I have read posts where their V drop was nil,

Gavin wrote: Not necessarily! Bees carry a lot of variation on which selection can work. Populations of mites are rather uniform, genetically.

In answer to these:

First mite-drop is not the only mite-level check, certainly in any mature colony. One should not rely on only one appraisal method, as there are other methods, which may agree or contradict another.

Gavin is quite right in what he says....but I would counter that the original spread of mites and the later spread of pyrethroid resistance may not bode well for an early end to the problem.

The bee population may need a great deal of help from us humans to rectify us 'putting our feet in it' re global spread of the mite, whereas the mite seems to need little assistance to spread it's destructive lifestyle.

Regards, RAB

 

[mbc]

The bee population may need a great deal of help from us humans to rectify us 'putting our feet in it' re global spread of the mite, whereas the mite seems to need little assistance to spread it's destructive lifestyle.

Regards, RAB

possibly any help we give them is actually more of a hindrance in the medium term from them sorting it out naturally

 

[Arfermo]

Look back at my first post. A Finnish beekeeper in the dark of winter digs his bees out from under a metre of snow and trickles them with oxalic acid. The bees subsequently thrive.

Sometimes it helps not to consider what might be going on but to judge by results.

Oxalic acid is very effective and be used in more than one way but some methods are safer for the operator than others.

"Stand up wind" for heavens sake. A molecule can move faster than you can run.

Tosh. As I have alraedy said mine thrive too. Obviously you have never used the evaporation technique so you are not competent to comment. One molecule certainly isn't enough to do any harm anyway. Just do a bit of reading and you would know that point is well proven, so stop scaremongering when it is not justified.

 

[cygnus]

For me this is the treatment of choice for varroa. The girls get Apigard now and then a dose of oxalic acid in early december when there is virtually no brood to harbour varroa. I've done this for the last four years with no trouble. As a chemist IMO the 'elf & safety culture overblows the dangers of the substance. I would much sooner handle this than domestic bleach!
I also use it on a new colony if I am fortunate enough to catch a swarm from outside the apiary. They get it within 12 hours of being hived before there is any brood. You must use it at the correct strength as a solution in syrup otherwise it doesn't work and it is best to use a fresh lot each year.

 

[RoofTops]

Tosh. As I have alraedy said mine thrive too. Obviously you have never used the evaporation technique so you are not competent to comment. One molecule certainly isn't enough to do any harm anyway. Just do a bit of reading and you would know that point is well proven, so stop scaremongering when it is not justified.

I won't respond anymore to this sort of rubbish other than to say I am very familar with evaporating OA having seen it done on a lot of hives and I accept it is effective. The issue is whether it is the safest way to apply OA - which it isn't. Unfortunately, this message has not really got around a number of beekeepers in the UK - but natural selection will sort out the "foggers" in due course.

 

[MODNOD]

[QUOTE= It is not cyanide.

Now that would sort the problem out including , we used to use it on wasp nests and now alas its banned

 

[Rosti]

Obviously you have never used the evaporation technique so you are not competent to comment. One molecule certainly isn't enough to do any harm anyway. Just do a bit of reading and you would know that point is well proven, so stop scaremongering when it is not justified.

Arfermo, I appreciate the comment was aimed elsewhere but in the spirit of an informed debate (and the safety of forum members) I disagree; In labs I have run my teams were compelled by law to use a negative pressure fume cabinet for much lower impact chemicals than atomised oxalic. You cannot plan for a change in wind direction and similar. If you consider the National Register of Sprayer Operators. Pesticide Application Modules 1 & 6 (NPTC) you'll find the same risk assessment and management criteria apply there as well (at least they did when I qualified not so long back and these standards tend to tighten not soften with time)