Laurence Edwards' petition to allow the use of the word "Raw" to describe unheated, non-pressure filtered honey.

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Well if it's been mucked about with things like alcohol, then it's plainly not honey so the food safety, rather than honey regulations apply - well done Trading Standards
Sorry, apologies, but I dont understand what you mean by 'mucked about with things like honey' , is there a problem with mixing the two? please enlighten me... I'd also like to hear why you think Trading Standards should become engaged...
I'm intrigued!
 
With respect to 'raw', OED tells us (of food) not cooked. (of a material or substance) in its natural state; unprocessed.
So how did Trading Standards not accept the definition? I can only guess that they though that for honey to be raw, it needs to be in its natural state, therefore comb honey perhaps may be raw?
 
Sorry, apologies, but I dont understand what you mean by 'mucked about with things like honey' , is there a problem with mixing the two? please enlighten me... I'd also like to hear why you think Trading Standards should become engaged...
I'm intrigued!
Probably because the definition of honey in the labelling regs is specific about it being unadulterated honey. If you infuse it with something then it no longer falls within that definition so shouldn't be being marketed as honey. If still being sold as honey then that would be a TS issue. However, as it's still a food, food regs would apply.
 
Well ... I'm with Laurence on this issue ... it's a powerful marketing word identifying a product that my customers want ... Trading standards ridiculous in this instance.
There’s no consistency. Our local trading standards have no issue with it apparently. Unless they’ve changed their view from last year when our local BKA invited them to do a talk on labelling.
 
But I think you miss the point. Not all honey is raw. I call my honey raw because it is. If a cheap derivative of honey is called raw but is not then it should not be called it and therefore THEY are misleading people, not me!

I think that commercial and other large honey producers possibly (and understandably) find it difficult to produce a consistent output of the product in the quantity and marketable form needed, unless they use heat and filtration in a way which would bar it from being labelled as "raw" under most peoples' understanding of the term.

Perhaps it is not in their interests for the status quo to be changed by allowing the use of the term "raw"? It certainly sounds like that to me. So maybe better to tell us little people that we shouldn't rock the boat?
 
I think that commercial and other large honey producers possibly (and understandably) find it difficult to produce a consistent output of the product in the quantity and marketable form needed, unless they use heat and filtration in a way which would bar it from being labelled as "raw" under most peoples' understanding of the term.

Perhaps it is not in their interests for the status quo to be changed by allowing the use of the term "raw"? It certainly sounds like that to me. So maybe better to tell us little people that we shouldn't rock the boat?

Maybe the industry shouldn't aim for uniformity in a product which isn't intrinsically uniform? Teach the public that good honey has character...

'You may say I'm a dreamer...'
 
Apparently "another beekeeper" reported Laurence; out of discretion and courtesy he's obviously keeping some background information out of this.
I would suggest TS did not say who reported Laurence other than saying it was another beekeeper.
 
Maybe the industry shouldn't aim for uniformity in a product which isn't intrinsically uniform? Teach the public that good honey has character...

'You may say I'm a dreamer...'

I "Imagine" that hobby beekeeper honey has a real lack of uniformity. I know that most commercially marketed honey is reliably uniform, and I'm not the only one. ;)
 
I think nihbs have a sort of red tractor scheme for honey sold by their members.
[/QUOTE]
Why don’t we all get behind this scheme, if it was adopted nationally we could have a honey day or something like the first press wine day. Advertise all the fabulous local association open days and shows.

The press would love it.
 
Maybe the industry shouldn't aim for uniformity in a product which isn't intrinsically uniform? Teach the public that good honey has character...

'You may say I'm a dreamer...'
Isn’t that the basic problem, honey is not a uniform product, just like wine it varies. Isn’t that what we are proud of ?
 
It's funny that English, which is so good at borrowing words from other languages and making one up when we need a new one, does not have a word to encapsulate what we mean. It's true that "raw", applied to food almost always means uncooked. You can have raw sewerage and raw data - both of which mean "unprocessed" - but I can't think of a food-related example that uses "raw" like that.

Some of us "local", but that's a bit non-specific. "Unprocessed" is ungainly and not actually true. "Unpasteurised" sounds vaguely dangerous and is only part of the story

The French use "artisanal", but in English that comes across as a bit fey and pretentious. A pity, as I rather like the word. "Home-produced" has overtones of amateur and a bit second-rate

I bought a bottle a couple of weeks ago that had a full-scale essay on the rear label, including CAPITAL LETTERS! I confess the word "rant" passed my lips, but I could feel the beek's frustration at the limitations of language

Anyway, it's a bit raw outside today. I hope you all have a fun solstice and a warm Covid-free Xmas
 
But I think you miss the point. Not all honey is raw. I call my honey raw because it is. If a cheap derivative of honey is called raw but is not then it should not be called it and therefore THEY are misleading people, not me!

I don't miss the point at all.

The use of 'raw' is raising straw men arguments about other peoples honey. By the use of a legally meaningless term.

I do not know of ONE beekeeper who sells cooked honey pressure filtered thus denaturing it. So it is trying to gain advantage (that's fine in itself..its a competitive world and we all make our own choices) over people who, through choice or simply compliance, choose to keep the MAIN label simple and legal.

Nothing on the main label precludes you from telling your own story (only thing is it must be true) elsewhere, like on a back label or lid seal. Make it about why YOUR honey is so good and stick to real things.

Which product are you inplying to the customer is actually a 'cheap derivative of honey'. I know of no such thing on the UK market. The honey market is already chopped and diced into sectors and that bottom sector...the cheap generic honey, primarily Chinese...and very low prices..is bought by a totally different clientelle from your honey. Its not even competition.

The assumption that filtering is bad is just plain wrong and originates in an amateur artificial distinction between straining and filtering. Its all filtering strictly speaking......the distinction has arisen in the background making filtering removing everything, and straining just the rough stuff. The amount of severe treatment of honey that goes on in the UK is minimal....quality assurance just does not allow it..its part of what the honey regs are for.

Numerous other points have arisen in the thread....will go to one......consistency. The customer does in fact like knowing if they buy the blossom honey of beekeeper and enjoy it, that the next jar will meet their expectations. Bulking your year's harvest to get a consistent product is absolutely fine, it is not tampering.
In the big bulk trade it is called homogenising....not the same as sticking it through a blender...but in the UK the amount of domestic origin honey treated this way will be zero. Giving the customer what they expect is a good thing....if they suddenly get a jar of honey from you that is different, dandelion for example, you might get complaints and reduced sales.

Its the bees that make the honey depending on floral source......the measure of quality at retail level is really about how little the beekeeper has done to spoil it.

Have tried honey from a shedload of places all over the UK....often buy a local jar when travelling...just curiosity. Might be a red rag to say it....but there are some very poor packs out there using premium language for honey that is not great. The superiority of one beekeepers honey over anothers is very often only in the beekeepers own head...OSR from beekeeper A, B or C, is generally much the same. There are a few truly exceptional packers of UK honey........their sales come not from hyping it up in terms of little legal value....they come from repeat purchases. It is crucial that that point gets home.......you can sell one jar once easily...but to attract brand loyalty you need to focus strongly on the product in the jar, not the words on the label.

John Mellis in SW Scotland is the classic case....his labelling is simple..no fashionable buzzwords....his packing is invariably immaculate..he never advertises...his prices are pretty bullish (high)....the demand for his honey is so high he can hardly cope. Get the basics right and the market will come.
 
It's funny that English, which is so good at borrowing words from other languages and making one up when we need a new one, does not have a word to encapsulate what we mean. It's true that "raw", applied to food almost always means uncooked. You can have raw sewerage and raw data - both of which mean "unprocessed" - but I can't think of a food-related example that uses "raw" like that.

Some of us "local", but that's a bit non-specific. "Unprocessed" is ungainly and not actually true. "Unpasteurised" sounds vaguely dangerous and is only part of the story

The French use "artisanal", but in English that comes across as a bit fey and pretentious. A pity, as I rather like the word. "Home-produced" has overtones of amateur and a bit second-rate

I bought a bottle a couple of weeks ago that had a full-scale essay on the rear label, including CAPITAL LETTERS! I confess the word "rant" passed my lips, but I could feel the beek's frustration at the limitations of language

Anyway, it's a bit raw outside today. I hope you all have a fun solstice and a warm Covid-free Xmas

Excellent summary. :)
 
That's an interesting point. But what Laurence is saying is that "The Public" have come to perceive "Raw" to have the meaning of home-produced honey, straight from the hive to the jar. People search out "Raw" honey and many imported brands, jarred in other countries, either under their own or under no regulations, will continue to state "raw". So, I guess he's asking us to re-assess that meaning of the word as it pertains to honey.
not dissagreeing on that just advising what the Trading Standards/Law current interpretation is.
 
... Giving the customer what they expect is a good thing....if they suddenly get a jar of honey from you that is different, dandelion for example, you might get complaints and reduced sales....

It's all about the customers. Some are informed but most of them are fooled of the word "raw". And the customer don't always know what to expect. They have to be educated. If we are adapting to the customer we are making ourselves stupider than we are.
 

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