Is it time to stop importing live bees?

[madasafish]

If bees were domestic animals or farmed animals , non treatment for varroa - if not part of a program breeding for varroa tolerance - would be treated as animal cruelty...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Left to their own devices wouldn’t surviving bees “adapt” to suit their own needs? Smaller defensive colonies issuing prime and cast swarms and producing just enough honey ( maybe) for themselves?

 

[Anduril]

God knows what damage that would do to other bee species as virus levels spiralled.
But it wouldn't even be over once survivor stocks emerged. There would be several isolated groups that would hybridise where they met likely diluting each other's resistance creating further waves of collapse.
Plus you'd have to consider the future. Would this vastly reduced gene pool have the variety to adapt to the next threat or would it be a slow March to extinction.

For the other bee species then we have this research
https://www.iflscience.com/plants-a...nfections-to-wild-bumblebees-through-flowers/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0217822&type=printable

 

[mbc]

The sustainable way forwards is to stop large scale imports of cheap bees imo.
Some bee farmers would have to adapt or go under and some hobbyists would likely give up the craft if it became harder or more expensive to access their preferred quick fix for queens, an acceptable price to pay if the industry and craft/hobby of beekeeping were to become more self sustaining with a much reduced risk of importing foreign parasites.
I believe this would force us to become better beekeepers on the whole and make us improve the largely untapped potential of our own bees.
The goal in my fantasy would be for beekeepers in every area to be able to breed from their best and to reasonably expect incremental gains in the characters they're selecting for in virtually open mating situations without too many cross matings, not to much to ask for, is it?

 

[B+.]

The goal in my fantasy would be for beekeepers in every area to be able to breed from their best and to reasonably expect incremental gains in the characters they're selecting for in virtually open mating situations without too many cross matings, not to much to ask for, is it?

I'm afraid it is.
I'm sure we can all imagine an ideal scenario and wish it were true. I have my own. However, the reality is that genetic improvements occur rarely and slowly. They are also mixed up with a whole load of other things you wouldn't want. That is why we use techniques like instrumental insemination and island mating to control the drones a virgin queen might find. Without these, it becomes too random and it is much less likely that a beneficial mating will take place. Then you would have an increased testing burden because the number of crosses you need to test becomes astronomically high....all without any guarantee that an advantageous mating took place anyway, let alone that you found it.

 

[SDM]

For the other bee species then we have this research
https://www.iflscience.com/plants-a...nfections-to-wild-bumblebees-through-flowers/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0217822&type=printable

Exactly those links that had me raise the issue.

 

[Hachi]

I'm afraid it is.
I'm sure we can all imagine an ideal scenario and wish it were true. I have my own. However, the reality is that genetic improvements occur rarely and slowly. They are also mixed up with a whole load of other things you wouldn't want. That is why we use techniques like instrumental insemination and island mating to control the drones a virgin queen might find. Without these, it becomes too random and it is much less likely that a beneficial mating will take place. Then you would have an increased testing burden because the number of crosses you need to test becomes astronomically high....all without any guarantee that an advantageous mating took place anyway, let alone that you found it.

So, should we try and view this from a slightly different angle? How long in your opinion B+ [or any other queen rearing/improvement Jedi] would it take, in genetic improvement terms, to deliver on MBC's fantasy of the UK being self sufficient. Self sufficiency defined as queen rearing that delivered equal quality at similar costs to the end user.

 

[mbc]

So, should we try and view this from a slightly different angle? How long in your opinion B+ [or any other queen rearing/improvement Jedi] would it take, in genetic improvement terms, to deliver on MBC's fantasy of the UK being self sufficient. Self sufficiency defined as queen rearing that delivered equal quality at similar costs to the end user.

I'm not sure why you imagine we can match southern Europe on costs.
The fantasy revolves more around self reliance, either individually or in groups,/associations, rather than the commercial sector stepping in to cover a shortfall if imports were to stop. I dont think its a bad or wildly implausible aspiration for British isles beekeeping.

 

[B+.]

I'm not sure why you imagine we can match southern Europe on costs.
The fantasy revolves more around self reliance, either individually or in groups,/associations, rather than the commercial sector stepping in to cover a shortfall if imports were to stop. I dont think its a bad or wildly implausible aspiration for British isles beekeeping.

As Michael Palmer has illustrated, self-sufficiency in queens can be achieved by overwintering them in nucs. I don't think there is anything difficult in that. It does require a certain investment in equipment though.
The difficulty that I foresee is making improvements in subsequent generation if you rely on open mating. It may be less mixed in your area but, where I am, the bees are just too mixed.
I decided long ago that the best way for me would be to use instrumental insemination. I offer this as advice - it's up to you whether you take it or leave it

 

[B+.]

So, should we try and view this from a slightly different angle? How long in your opinion B+ [or any other queen rearing/improvement Jedi] would it take, in genetic improvement terms, to deliver on MBC's fantasy of the UK being self sufficient. Self sufficiency defined as queen rearing that delivered equal quality at similar costs to the end user.

IMHO, the cat is out of the bag and it is impossible to put it back in.
I accept that there may be areas that are less affected than others but, the whole UK won't accept the same bee. Surely, in your heart of hearts, you have to see that. We can't even agree on this forum. How much more difficult would that be elsewhere?

 

[Hachi]

I'm not sure why you imagine we can match southern Europe on costs.
The fantasy revolves more around self reliance, either individually or in groups,/associations, rather than the commercial sector stepping in to cover a shortfall if imports were to stop. I dont think its a bad or wildly implausible aspiration for British isles beekeeping.

I never said it was implausible, I'm trying to work out the feasibility of what your asking by understanding what we as a nation would need to do, to reach your utopia. Then put some timings round the activities to see how long it would take.

 

[mbc]

I never said it was implausible, I'm trying to work out the feasibility of what your asking by understanding what we as a nation would need to do, to reach your utopia. Then put some timings round the activities to see how long it would take.

If an import ban was to be made law and then punitive measures actively seen to be used against those who tried to circumvent the law then by necessity it would be almost immediate.
Edit: as in, if a ban was brought in now, every queen needed could be produced and ready for mating by mid April, raising queens is not rocket surgery and anybody with the required skills could easily scale up.
Breeding and improving the stock would take a little longer but not by many seasons if we could get a critical mass of bee breeders working on the same page.

 

[Hachi]

Oh I see.

 

[drex]

As Michael Palmer has illustrated, self-sufficiency in queens can be achieved by overwintering them in nucs. I don't think there is anything difficult in that. It does require a certain investment in equipment though.
The difficulty that I foresee is making improvements in subsequent generation if you rely on open mating. It may be less mixed in your area but, where I am, the bees are just too mixed.
I decided long ago that the best way for me would be to use instrumental insemination. I offer this as advice - it's up to you whether you take it or leave it

I overwinter my new queens in home made wooden nuclei. Not difficult. I graft my own queens. Took some practice, but not difficult. Both as B+ says.

My queens are open mated. Through selection of queens with good traits, and culling of the bad, my stock has improved over a few years, and I am having to cull far fewer now.

 

[Beefriendly]

The question that really needs asking, given so many hobbyists think it is feasible to is produce, overwinter and sell queens in the UK in early spring for a profit......Is why are no major commercial operations set up in the UK to do this?
ITTLD once explained that the costs associated with doing it made it unprofitable.
So it's a basic non starter. when you can buy good quality Italian/ Carniolan etc queens from around April time from the continent.

 

[mbc]

The question that really needs asking, given so many hobbyists think it is feasible to is produce, overwinter and sell queens in the UK in early spring for a profit......Is why are no major commercial operations set up in the UK to do this?
ITTLD once explained that the costs associated with doing it made it unprofitable.
So it's a basic non starter. when you can buy good quality Italian/ Carniolan etc queens from around April time from the continent.

Quite right, it becomes viable as soon as you cannot buy cheaper queens earlier from elsewhere.

 

[Beefriendly]

Quite right, it becomes viable as soon as you cannot buy cheaper queens earlier from elsewhere.

Just as well that is highly unlikely to happen.
Last thing I need is to be condemned to using my local mongrel bees.
I'd have to increase hive numbers at least four fold just to generate the same amount honey.

 

[For want of a better word]

The question that really needs asking, given so many hobbyists think it is feasible to is produce, overwinter and sell queens in the UK in early spring for a profit......Is why are no major commercial operations set up in the UK to do this?
ITTLD once explained that the costs associated with doing it made it unprofitable.
So it's a basic non starter. when you can buy good quality Italian/ Carniolan etc queens from around April time from the continent.

It seems that many hobbyists want new bees in the Spring,
feed copiously,
perhaps over inspect,
panic that their charges will swarm,
get either elated with a crop of honey,
or dispondant because the bees have eaten the crop...
overdo the varroa control,or do none at all
open the colony in the depth of winter and pour acid and syrup over the clustered bees.....
panic over feeding fondant...
Find a box of dead bees on St David's Day
Order a new box of bees for the Spring

Do this for two seasons and give up!

Perhaps there need to be a change in practice, and teach new beekeepers how to manage their bees...
and ( Tin Hats Ready) buy bees that are adapted to our climate, bred in the UK.... not ones IMPORTED from the Mediterranean? ( or force bred on German /Dutch/Danish islands?)

There are a few breeders in the UK who actually breed bees and raise queens for sale, bees bred in the UK from their own stock... not imported breeder queens... some even sell overwintered stock.

All at a price of course... you get what you pay for!

Unfortunately there are many who IMPORT and sell on, I was offered LOCAL PLYMOUTH Italian or Italian Buckfast Queens from Gozo ( Malta) for £27 each to requeen my colonies ( why requeen all my queens seem to be good to go!)

Then perhaps the market for early bees and queens would diminish??

I do not think that the argument that "the local bees are rubbish/angry etc etc" so I import cheap bees from wompopo land stands up.
A capable beekeeper, as with DREX et al are doing something about improving his stock, without the environmental expense and need to import

 

[Murox]

Socrates was probably right after all - whoever is not content with what they have, will never be contented with what they would like to have. We can (if we try) provide enough to satisfy our needs, but not our greed.

 

[B+.]

so I import cheap bees from wompopo land

It is statements like this that raise tensions in the forum. Why can't you accept that we all have the right to do what we want?