Is it time to stop importing live bees?

[mbc]

The Germans had the sense to realise that their local black bees, like most of ours, where rubbish. So they committed genocide by getting rid of them and imported Carniolans.
So yes, in effect they imported their bees for their own short and Long term benefit.

This'll be good.
What foreign country did the Germans import their base carniolan stock from?

 

[madasafish]

SPOT ON

Potentially EVERY honey bee imported into the UK by whatever means is a treat to the UK population.
!

If a treat to the UK population, why complain?

If they were a threat....

 

[Beefriendly]

This'll be good.
What foreign country did the Germans import their base carniolan stock from?

Why good? The point is the Germans realised that their local bees were crap and did something about it.
Here's a little history for you.

In 1857 Emil Ravenegg Rotschutz sent bee colonies from Višnja gora, (Was Yugoslavia) Carniolan province, to Eichstadt, Germany. The experiences of German beekeepers with bees from Carniolan province were so good that they demanded more and more of these bee colonies. News of the gentle character of the grey bee soon spread to other nations.

In Central Europe the aggressive dark species, Apis mellifera mellifera, was endemic. Soon new branches of beekeeping business were established. Following this new activity in beekeeping, beekeepers reoriented their bee management into the production of additional bee swarms. Honey production became only a sideline product for some beekeepers (Rihar 1998). Public opinion from that time supported the attitude of Slovene beekeepers: “we are the breeders of Carniolan bee and we should be proud of our bee”. Native bees really penetrated in the subconscience of the beekeepers at that time.

Between the period from 1857 and the end of World War I, it is documented that specialised Slovene merchants exported at least 170.000 swarms; according to some estimates the number is even as high as 500.000. In many places they completely superseded the native dark bee. Today, their work is being continued by honeybee queen breeders, who sell approximately 40.000 queens, mostly to the countries of Central and Western Europe, with exports increasing annually.

 

[SDM]

This'll be good.
What foreign country did the Germans import their base carniolan stock from?

Were talking about bees, not people. What have countries got to do with "local bees" ?

 

[SDM]

This'll be good.
What foreign country did the Germans import their base carniolan stock from?

Were talking about bees, not people. What have countries got to do with "local bees" ?
Interesting answer from beefriendly though. I'd read elsewhere that Slovenia had a wealth or respected beekeepers/breeders from the mid 1850's onwards and always assumed that Germany would have used these more intensively selected bees as a head start.

 

[mbc]

Why good? The point is the Germans realised that their local bees were crap and did something about it.
Here's a little history for you.

In 1857 Emil Ravenegg Rotschutz sent bee colonies from Višnja gora, (Was Yugoslavia) Carniolan province, to Eichstadt, Germany. The experiences of German beekeepers with bees from Carniolan province were so good that they demanded more and more of these bee colonies. News of the gentle character of the grey bee soon spread to other nations.

In Central Europe the aggressive dark species, Apis mellifera mellifera, was endemic. Soon new branches of beekeeping business were established. Following this new activity in beekeeping, beekeepers reoriented their bee management into the production of additional bee swarms. Honey production became only a sideline product for some beekeepers (Rihar 1998). Public opinion from that time supported the attitude of Slovene beekeepers: “we are the breeders of Carniolan bee and we should be proud of our bee”. Native bees really penetrated in the subconscience of the beekeepers at that time.

Between the period from 1857 and the end of World War I, it is documented that specialised Slovene merchants exported at least 170.000 swarms; according to some estimates the number is even as high as 500.000. In many places they completely superseded the native dark bee. Today, their work is being continued by honeybee queen breeders, who sell approximately 40.000 queens, mostly to the countries of Central and Western Europe, with exports increasing annually.

I'd thought the carnies were native to southern Germany, I'm happy to be educated, every day's a school day.
Edit: wicki says southern alps(along with Slovenia and balkans) .

 

[Swarm]

Buckfast can be gotten for the same price and will do better

What buckfast? I ask because there seem to be different buckfast types so which is the real one?
The guy near me, who 'gave buckfasts a try' admitted the error of his ways. Told me they had been nothing special and he is requeening this year with some decent native Welsh queens
One hiccup after having a stable population for over ten years with naturally mated queens, all for a whim.
Never mind, things will get back to normal with some decent drones in the air again. Happy days

 

[B+.]

Were talking about bees, not people. What have countries got to do with "local bees" ?

I gave a joint presentation at BedsBKA last night on queen rearing and bee breeding. As you might expect, the phrase "local bees" came up once or twice but nobody defined what a "local bee" was. I maintain that any queen mated on the west of Bedfordshire (which borders with Buckinghamshire) is as much a local bee as one that is mated on the north (which borders with MK). Not only that, there are beekeepers within the county who have Carnica, Buckfast, etc. All open-mated virgins will mate with a cross-section of these. So, what exactly is a "local bee"? It seems to me that the term is ridiculous. Are we going to say that a Bedfordshire bee is different to a Buckinghamshire bee (or any other county)? Are we going to start comparing them or blindly accept what people say without evidence? Are we going to start saying a bee is not local because the beekeeper who owns them (irrespective of where his apiaries are) happens to live in one street rather than another. The whole argument is pathetic and is more a statement, not on the bees intrinsic value, but on the sanity of the beekeeper concerned.

 

[B+.]

I'd thought the carnies were native to southern Germany, I'm happy to be educated, every day's a school day.
Edit: wicki says southern alps(along with Slovenia and balkans) .

The German border has changed occasionally so you have to be very careful about the time period that anything you read relates to.

 

[For want of a better word]

Read that a recent study by the Apigenix labs in Switzerland showed a high proportion of Apis mellifera mellifera genes mixed in with the so called pure German carniolian bees.

Not really a surprise as it has been said that eventually the weaker genetics of the introgressive imported exotics would be but a mere echo within a population of native bees as they adjust to local environments providing new stock was not introduced.

But the import for tons of honey brigade of zealots will continue to flog their ideology!

A perpetual argument it seems.
Perhaps they are not happy with the bees they have???

 

[B+.]

Perhaps they are not happy with the bees they have???

Some things never change Icanhopit...or, perhaps they do...you've got ANOTHER new name I see.

 

[Swarm]

I gave a joint presentation at BedsBKA last night on queen rearing and bee breeding. As you might expect, the phrase "local bees" came up once or twice but nobody defined what a "local bee" was. I maintain that any queen mated on the west of Bedfordshire (which borders with Buckinghamshire) is as much a local bee as one that is mated on the north (which borders with MK). Not only that, there are beekeepers within the county who have Carnica, Buckfast, etc. All open-mated virgins will mate with a cross-section of these. So, what exactly is a "local bee"? It seems to me that the term is ridiculous. Are we going to say that a Bedfordshire bee is different to a Buckinghamshire bee (or any other county)? Are we going to start comparing them or blindly accept what people say without evidence? Are we going to start saying a bee is not local because the beekeeper who owns them (irrespective of where his apiaries are) happens to live in one street rather than another. The whole argument is pathetic and is more a statement, not on the bees intrinsic value, but on the sanity of the beekeeper concerned.

Isn't this the point? Constantly adding a bit of this or that? It's a selfish, lazy approach.
A ban on imports stops the meddling.

 

[B+.]

Isn't this the point? Constantly adding a bit of this or that? It's a selfish, lazy approach.
A ban on imports stops the meddling.

The point is that there will always be beekeepers who are content to accept whatever they get. Good luck to them...but...that doesn't mean they can stand in the way of those of us who are engaged in selective breeding. Where do you think benefits like hygiene/VSH come from? It is only by selecting for it as part of a breeding programme. Beekeepers who have open mated queens nearby get that free (along with all the other beneficial traits). They don't have to put the effort into developing it.

 

[Beefriendly]

A ban on imports stops the meddling.

Nope, it would condemn all of us to having nothing but rubbish local mongrel bees. Thankfully that will never happen.
Bee breeding as practised by 99% of UK beekeepers is a bit of joke, as it mainly relies on random mating. No serious breeder of bees would even contemplate leaving this aspect to chance.
The reality is the local drone population is largely irrelevant to any major breeding programmes in the UK. You need II or you are weeing up the proverbial. So imports should have no effect whatsoever on any dedicated breeders indulging in their so called Amm's.

BTW welcome back B+, you have been conspicuous by your absence.

 

[Swarm]

As I've already said, without meddling, the population in my area was stable for years. Natural mating as opposed to artificial methods, produced nice queens and colonies of very nice black bees, certainly not rubbish, quite the contrary in fact.

I've been more than happy to 'take what I've been given' B+ because they have been lovely bees. Why would I want to change them for something that is not sustainable?

A ban would be a very good thing,

 

[B+.]

BTW welcome back B+, you have been conspicuous by your absence.

Thank you.
I've made a few posts in response to specific questions where I have the knowledge to answer but this does not mean I'll devote as much time to this forum as I did previously. In discussions with ITLD, I should say that we are both fed up with insulting comments from people with limited knowledge/experience criticizing those that do it all the time. I say this to all those out there who like the sound of their own "voice" too much. Some of us might have a little more knowledge/experience than we let on. A modicum of politeness when asking a question would not go amiss.

 

[B+.]

I've been more than happy to 'take what I've been given' B+ because they have been lovely bees. Why would I want to change them for something that is not sustainable?

A ban would be a very good thing,

I heard similar opinions being voiced last night. All I can say is: You're welcome.

 

[tonyofarr]

Thank you.
I've made a few posts in response to specific questions where I have the knowledge to answer but this does not mean I'll devote as much time to this forum as I did previously. In discussions with ITLD, I should say that we are both fed up with insulting comments from people with limited knowledge/experience criticizing those that do it all the time. I say this to all those out there who like the sound of their own "voice" too much. Some of us might have a little more knowledge/experience than we let on. A modicum of politeness when asking a question would not go amiss.

I am sorry you feel this way B+, I would welcome more posts from you and ITLD.

 

[gp125john]

We basically provide a home for our bees, reduce the number of varroa they have to contend with then take away their food a couple of times a year and exchange it for syrup in the Autumn and try to prevent them from reproducing in the spring and summer. In all other respects the bees live as wild animals, living in the local environment, taking advantage of the opportunities it provides and being subject to the threats.

If my understanding is correct, before widespread management of colonies, left in that environment, natural selection will decide the best genetics to suit. In our country that was AMM and those genes still make up a significant part of the average feral colony genetics.

We have imported so many different bees over the years that the gene pool has been expanded to the extent that any useful genetics from any bee, may be passed on to the local hybrid mongrels. However you can't expect that all the genes of a queen bred in Greece, Slovenia, Germany etc will have a full set of useful genes for the UK.

We do not know better than nature itself and if we stopped or vastly reduced imports of various non-native races, eventually we would have a bee well suited to its environment. Meanwhile we can select for the desirable traits from those locally adapted mongrels and develop a bee with good traits that is well suited to its evnvironment. I think this means that it produces a good amount of honey in an average year but a reasonable amount in a poor year, is not too aggressive, easy to handle and survives the winter with minimal stores. It slows or stops brood rearing when forage is short and may also show some VSH traits eventually.

This would take a while to do but could be worth it. If there are any genes in your buckfast, carnica or ligustica queens that are of use to our british adapted mongrel bees, those genes would survive. Anything unsuitable will either die naturally or be culled by the beekeeper.

It doesn't seem stupid to me to try and look at it from the bees point of view for once.

 

[gp125john]

A further thought, a few people have mentioned the difficulties in breeding queens posed by our weather. A locally adapted queen of the type I am hoping for will also eventually be able to mate even in sub-optimal conditions. Any that cant would not have the opportunity to pass their genes on unless the weather was perfect.

That trait would make queen breeding easier.