Is it time to stop importing live bees?

[mbc]

Given the comments above in the negative to B+'s efforts that any impact he may have made in his bee improvement programme will be quickly eradicated leaves me with three questions:

1. There was a discussion sometime ago that questioned the integrity of claiming true AMM's actually exist. Do they exist?

and:

2. If such endeavours by B+ et al can be quickly eradicated, what's the fuss all about as any adjustments made will only be temporary surely?

3. This being the case would it not be the same for any similar work on the AMM strain?

Now before some of the usual keyboard warriors start knocking out abuse, these are serious questions.

1. Yes
2. The majority of the genetic legacy of imported bees would disappear, it's quite possible/probable that advantageous characters would be retained in the gene pool, this all of course is if natural selection runs it's course.
The big fuss would be if small hive beatle or tropililaps or some other pest or disease was imported with the bees.
3. Fix advantageous characteristics in the native bee population and there's every chance, with the mating advantages of native bees, that they would persist, it is only with native bees that we have a chance of altering the drone gene pool so that open matings will pass on characteristics in a true breeding fashion.
With any other sub species we'd be fighting an uphill battle against the bees and without continuing interference the bees themselves would quickly revert to something approaching native.

All imo of course.

 

[Hachi]

interesting.

Going back to Q1. I recall the argument centred on whether or not the AMM existed genetically. Things got heated [as they usually do on here] so much so that I don't think it was ever answered properly.

So when I asked does the AMM exist what I should have said was, can it be demonstrated genetically they are pure AMM's?

I think it important we can establish this as fact otherwise what are we arguing about?

 

[SDM]

Ask Murox about the weather on the west coast of Scotland before casting nasturiums. Any bee that can survive those conditions deserves a doffed cap.....The weather and forage there tends not to be conducive to high honey yields by any strain of bees.
Not sure if anyone has assessed the Colonsay Amm's for honey collection in a more gentle environment. I know HM had some queens from there a while back and he might have more information about them.

All of the colonies I was told about were assessed in more gentle climes and by beekeepers aware of their sensitivity where mites are concerned.

 

[mbc]

interesting.

Going back to Q1. I recall the argument centred on whether or not the AMM existed genetically. Things got heated [as they usually do on here] so much so that I don't think it was ever answered properly.

So when I asked does the AMM exist what I should have said was, can it be demonstrated genetically they are pure AMM's?

I think it important we can establish this as fact otherwise what are we arguing about?

Thrres been plenty of genetic testing done, some of the Scottish Amm is almost 100% pure as is the Irish(97%iirc) some of my own bees tested at over 90 % whichis generally regarded as the benchmark for 'pure' and some of Joe's Cornish bees in the link to the talk I posted earlier were well over 90% pure Amm.
Why are you fixated on purity?
It's a fairly pointless question, even the best testing German carnica has a little Amm mitochondrial DNA residual in its make up, it's of no real consequence so long as the bees breed true.

 

[SDM]

Care to put that to the test?

He hasn't stopped running scared from the last time he was asked.

 

[SDM]

You have no idea what you're talking about, but, I've come to expect that.

You get what you get from deranged zealots .
Keep up the "diabolical work" the last decade has probably seen more advancement in bee breeding than in the rest of history.

 

[SDM]

With any other sub species we'd be fighting an uphill battle against the bees and without continuing interference the bees themselves would quickly revert to something approaching native.

All imo of course.

.
The subspecies is native, but that has nothing to do with locally adapted. We are continuously interfering whatever race we keep, were beekeepers after all.
If you are advocating that we should have no selection process whatsoever, so that nature can decide what is advantageous, then you should make yourself clear.

 

[Hachi]

It is not a pointless question. Stop running down people who are trying to understand by typing things like that.

I will take the opportunity tho to say, in my experience every time some one asks a question regarding purity of AMM's the mood changes and posts towards them become passive aggressive or openly aggressive. Why is that?

Please treat this as a conversation between two chums in the bar having a pint after work or team sports.

How is it established it is 90% pure? is it measured and compared to genetic origin samples or is it measured a different way?

My next question is how is the purity of the AMM maintained?

 

[gp125john]

Collectively as beekeepers perhaps a guilty consciounce that most of us have contributed to messing up the gene pool by continually introducing exotic subspecies.

I am not particularly bothered about how pure an AMM is but most of thd scientists seem to say that if we worked with existing bees in this country, after a number of years they would exibit AMM type traits as less useful DNA is lost.

You can still selectively breed from queens exhibiting most of the traits you want but at least you would have a bee that probably won't run out of food in the winter, rears brood according to conditions, works hard, flies at low temperatures and in light rain, doesn't tollerate wasps. Into that you select for bees that are nice to handle and produce good yields. I heard somewhere than averaged over the course of a few years, such a bee would out perform a bee that in a good year produces loads of honey such as ligustica etc. As they struggle in poor years

 

[B+.]

My next question is how is the purity of the AMM maintained?

I asked Icanhopit that question a year, or so, ago. He referred to Mount Edgecombe "sanctuary". My question was followed up by: how much area, and how was it bordered. After some back-and-forth it seems that it all just boils down to uncontrolled open mating.
IMHO, if they have/had pure Amm, they should have been registered in some way and they should have instituted a round-robin breeding programme using II to develop more. The problem they now have is that, as time elapses, the results of any genetic study they had performed will be invalidated. It's like an MOT on your car - only valid at the time of issue. So, if you open mate you have no way of knowing what the impact of a (possibly changing) drone population is.
IMHO, the biggest weakness in the whole argument is that they don't seem to have a scheme for identifying/cataloging specimens

 

[Erichalfbee]

I know folk’s views are polarised on this subject but page after page of insult and personal attack is pointless.
These threads always degenerate
It would be a pity to nip them all in the bud in anticipation in the future.
Some of you need to wind your necks in a bit