Is it time to stop importing live bees?

[For want of a better word]

If I had to read it, I want to share the pain around

I have a copy of Roger P's book, and a signed copy of Proff R's tome too!

Chons da

 

[B+.]

I have a copy of Roger P's book, and a signed copy of Proff R's tome too!

Chons da

I tend to make notes (or obscene comments if I disagree with an author) so my books are rarely worth keeping. I do have an autographed copy of John Atkinsons book somewhere but I'm not a collector or anything like that. There was a time when printed material was treasured but now, with everything available online, I use/abuse books (which may be why I can never find something I remember reading).

 

[mbc]

If inbreeding is an inevitable problem with producing queens from your own stock, does the answer lie in obtaining queens from just outside your local area?
Maybe arranging swaps with other bee keepers in those areas?

Courty

Inbreeding in open mated lines is extremely unlikely.
I know the stock on Colonsay and Oransay hasn't had new genetic material for decades and yet the stock(probably some of the most intensely genetically studied stock on the planet) hasn't suffered from inbreeding suppression, not one sex allele lost since the studies began, and this is with a closed population hovering around the hundred colonies mark.

 

[SDM]

And by reputation, utterly sh*t bees. If that's the result of decades of improvement when working with Amm in a perfect closed population.......... you're welcome to them.
Being so poor and not apparently inbred. I'd suggest he doesn't exercise much in the way of selection.

 

[Murox]

my thoughts ....................

As was mentioned somewhere, bees (in common with some other creatures) can develop the abilities necessary to thrive in an environment other than their own locale – true adaptability, but not a specific adaptation that I suspect would take millennia. That coupled with folk not finding/seeing problems with inbreeding suggests to me the phenomena of haplodiploidy and polyandry must play a significant role. Which might in part explain the difficulty of “fixing” specific traits and introgression. It also highlights to me the need to “manipulate” and “manage” drone populations in any meaningful breeding scenario.

 

[Murox]

And by reputation, utterly sh*t bees. If that's the result of decades of improvement when working with Amm in a perfect closed population.......... you're welcome to them.
Being so poor and not apparently inbred. I'd suggest he doesn't exercise much in the way of selection.

Please explain.

 

[mbc]

And by reputation, utterly sh*t bees. If that's the result of decades of improvement when working with Amm in a perfect closed population.......... you're welcome to them.
Being so poor and not apparently inbred. I'd suggest he doesn't exercise much in the way of selection.

Good grief!
Andrew Abrahams has never set himself out to be some sort of bee breeding institute, he just happens to be a beekeeper with an isolated stock of pure Amm, I've met him and he's a really nice chap who's primary income is lobster potting.
I really don't know why you take this condescending derogatory tone with people.
And why you imagine bees suitable to isolated western isles conditions would do well parachuted into situations rife with unfamiliar pests and pathogens underlines your ignorance imho.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Not knocking you in any way but any beekeeper can raise queens are you sure, the average beekeeper is VERY average!!! Most of those few hive owners would struggle to find a couple of nuc boxes let alone a dozen or 2 and a decent queen to start from. I find many beeks that can’t even bring themselves to splat a queen, not really a great start to a selection process. There is a huge disconnect with many new beeks nowadays as many have little experience of any livestock or even a pet dog.

True words, and that's one factor that prevents concerted UK bee improvement: not many have the slightest interest, and rely either on the debit card to solve problems or tolerate what they have. If pigs and cows were kept the way that some among us keep bees, they'd be up in court.

 

[user 6228]

One question:
Is this bee improvement in the context of wooden hives or the context of polystyrene hives or what?
This is an animal that lives 80% of its life in its nest and does outlandishly impressive stuff in manipulating its environment. I think separating a bees from the context of its nest is very short sighted.
There is a bit of biological jargon called the "extended phenotype". Basically what the animal is not just the cells but the things it uses as well. The classic example is the Beaver. A beaver isnt a beaver without its dam.

A honey bee nest is not a simple shelter, it is also an complex expression of the honey bees genes i.e. its "genotype" that enable it manipulate: air, water vapour, condensate, and heat.
On close inspection the honey bee makes the beavers "extended pheno type" look small beer yet the honey bees extended phenotype is largely ignored.

IMHO if you want to talk "bee improvement" you need to talk "nest improvement" , what ever you want those to mean. That includes the properties of the box, not just my obsession with thermal properties but the geometry of the entrance, which is involved in aggression and the aspect ratio which is involved with honey production etc..

 

[Swarm]

Good grief!
Andrew Abrahams has never set himself out to be some sort of bee breeding institute, he just happens to be a beekeeper with an isolated stock of pure Amm, I've met him and he's a really nice chap who's primary income is lobster potting.
I really don't know why you take this condescending derogatory tone with people.
And why you imagine bees suitable to isolated western isles conditions would do well parachuted into situations rife with unfamiliar pests and pathogens underlines your ignorance imho.

Some people forget the varroa free status and then criticise the bees after condemning them to deal with the pest that was imported into our country. I wouldn't dream of bringing Queens from Colonsay to anywhere on our mainland, why would I inflict varroa on a poor creature that has never witnessed it?


It's more of the usual nonsense

 

[Beefriendly]

And by reputation, utterly sh*t bees. If that's the result of decades of improvement when working with Amm in a perfect closed population.......... you're welcome to them.
Being so poor and not apparently inbred. I'd suggest he doesn't exercise much in the way of selection.

Ask Murox about the weather on the west coast of Scotland before casting nasturiums. Any bee that can survive those conditions deserves a doffed cap.....The weather and forage there tends not to be conducive to high honey yields by any strain of bees.
Not sure if anyone has assessed the Colonsay Amm's for honey collection in a more gentle environment. I know HM had some queens from there a while back and he might have more information about them.

 

[ericbeaumont]

If you want to talk "bee improvement" you need to talk "nest improvement", whatever you want those to mean. That includes the properties of the box, not just my obsession with thermal properties but the geometry of the entrance, which is involved in aggression and the aspect ratio which is involved with honey production etc..

Yes, Derek, and I'll throw in beekeeper improvement as well, because queen performance, honey yield, temper, overwintering, box thermal efficiency and disease are all compromised by the low standard of beekeeping in this country.

 

[B+.]

I'll throw in beekeeper improvement as well, because queen performance, honey yield, temper, overwintering, box thermal efficiency and disease are all compromised by the low standard of beekeeping in this country.

compared to?

 

[drex]

In the series of videos from National honeys show, Ralph Buchler is asked what he means by "local" . A question sometimes asked here. He says he was dreading being asked that, but in his answer he says bees coming from a similar environment could be considered local, rather than a specific number of kilometres. He means similar forage, pests, climate etc.

He does go on to say that the beekeeper can be one of the biggest factors in challenges the bees can face ( environment) - type of hive, system of management etc

 

[Murox]

Ask Murox about the weather on the west coast of Scotland before casting nasturiums. Any bee that can survive those conditions deserves a doffed cap.....The weather and forage there tends not to be conducive to high honey yields by any strain of bees.
Not sure if anyone has assessed the Colonsay Amm's for honey collection in a more gentle environment. I know HM had some queens from there a while back and he might have more information about them.

You should really ask Prof. Seeley about honeybees becoming adapted to their local environment; he visited to study first-hand Apis mellifera mellifera on Colonsay.

This might also be interesting background reading http://www.snhbs.scot/history-of-the-native-honey-bee-in-scotland-2/

 

[mbc]

You should really ask Prof. Seeley about honeybees becoming adapted to their local environment; he visited to study first-hand Apis mellifera mellifera on Colonsay.

This might also be interesting background reading http://www.snhbs.scot/history-of-the-native-honey-bee-in-scotland-2/

Thanks for posting, an interesting read.

 

[ericbeaumont]

compared to?

 

[B+.]

In the series of videos from National honeys show, Ralph Buchler is asked what he means by "local" . A question sometimes asked here. He says he was dreading being asked that, but in his answer he says bees coming from a similar environment could be considered local, rather than a specific number of kilometres. He means similar forage, pests, climate etc.

He does go on to say that the beekeeper can be one of the biggest factors in challenges the bees can face ( environment) - type of hive, system of management etc

This is exactly what I have been saying for years.
Each year, I test queens that are as good (arguably better than Dr Buchler has at Kirchhain) and breed from the best. These daughters are born and bred here so, arguably, should be considered "local" bees. Why do people get so hung up on them having carnica ancestry? Anyone with virgin queens within flying distance of my apiaries will end up with colonies that are at least 50% carnica anyway. That puts the "local" breeding idea in perspective

 

[Swarm]

There's climate and then there's weather conditions. Colonsay is a temperate climate just like Cornwall or Germany.

 

[Poly Hive]

The Colonsy bees originated in Aberdeenshire. I will not mention the M owrd or the C word but that is where they came from.

Yes they have been tested elsewhere with I believe problamatic results.

My own experience of Amm is they are lovely when they are good and total barstewards when bad. They produce the most beautiful white cappings with the much vaunted airspace underneath.

Very prone to Nosema and other ailments and they don't like being moved around.

About 60% of mine superseded on the Heather.

If the Carnies had the same cappings and the supersedure I would be in bee heaven.

PH