Is it time to stop importing live bees?

[foghornleghorn]

I guarantee he makes a better mark up on his U.K. mated queens. There's probably nobody in the country better placed to profit from a ban. Not to mention it would save him a few hundred hours of driving each spring
Go on , make up another excuse

If UK genetics were so good, they'd be exported and their daughters imported. There wouldn't be any problems getting someone to do the rearing as long as there's reasonable scale. Also because they'd perform so much better than the vastly inferior cheap yellow bees, they'd sell at a premium and make it even more lucrative to do so

 

[SDM]

If UK genetics were so good, they'd be exported and their daughters imported. There wouldn't be any problems getting someone to do the rearing as long as there's reasonable scale. Also because they'd perform so much better than the vastly inferior cheap yellow bees, they'd sell at a premium and make it even more lucrative to do so

You lost me at both exporting and importing our own bees.
The rest I can't tell if you are serious or not.

 

[Jimmy]

If UK genetics were so good, they'd be exported and their daughters imported. There wouldn't be any problems getting someone to do the rearing as long as there's reasonable scale. Also because they'd perform so much better than the vastly inferior cheap yellow bees, they'd sell at a premium and make it even more lucrative to do so

That's exactly what Murray McGregor does with his early season queens, apart from selling at a premium.

 

[Ian123]

Pragmatic man shoots part of his business in the foot, I think not!

You’ve answered the question yourself he would want bees that survive the winter bees that produce honey and bees that don’t chase the employees off. A friend of mine former BFA chairman supplied bees for poly tunnels in close proximity to pickers/workers who often followed him in after inspections. Good luck with local bees there!!! Now just like any other race/strain I am sure amm or local mongrel bees could be reared for their better qualities but honestly little has been done and groups like BIBBA have only been doing so on a very amateurish level in comparison to its counterparts. None when asked have been able to show any group that are capable to step in and fill any gap that a ban would create.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

If we stopped imports I'm sure people would step into the gap and use the opportunity and demand to develop perfectly good strains of queens in the quantities required. They might not be available so early in the year as the imports but this is overcome by selling over wintered queens for those that need them in spring.

I haven't purchased a queen during the last 35 years and rear about 50 or so every year from my selected queens and I am fairly happy with most of them (I do have to cull those that I feel are not up to the job or have other undesirable traits).They may not be as productive honey wise as the imports but do OK and are hardy (and don't eat themselves out of house and home), reasonably well behaved and don't swarm at the drop of a hat.
If I can do it, I'm sure many in the forum can.

I do what masterBK does - but not is quite so large quantities but it's fine for me; I am happy with my bees which significantly exceed the average yield from hives in the UK; excess overwintered stocks/queens go quickly in spring.

I am sure that beekeepers would start to fill the gap if we couldn't get imports. The price for a queen would go up (a bit) which would be enough to make it worthwhile to breed queens and also supply nucs. A whole new UK industry would grow up!

 

[B+.]

I am happy with my bees which significantly exceed the average yield from hives in the UK; excess overwintered stocks/queens go quickly in spring.

The thing you have to remember when comparing with an average (mean) is that you are automatically not selecting against the best performers (whose performance is dragged down by less than average, low performers).

 

[Jimmy]

I do what masterBK does - but not is quite so large quantities but it's fine for me; I am happy with my bees which significantly exceed the average yield from hives in the UK; excess overwintered stocks/queens go quickly in spring.

I am sure that beekeepers would start to fill the gap if we couldn't get imports. The price for a queen would go up (a bit) which would be enough to make it worthwhile to breed queens and also supply nucs. A whole new UK industry would grow up!

Two points - the BBKA honey yield survey is a self-reporting survey with no continuity of data from year to year. Anecdotally of interest but statistically useless in other words.
I don't know of a reliable yield reference. The beefarmers survey has similar issues to the BBKA one IMHO and the bulk honey price is sensitive to both supply and demand. The current bulk price is staying above £3 per lb despite a lot of stock in the system after two good years in a row for most large scale producers.

Secondly - no imports would probably force a substantial number of UK beefarmers to look at the viability of their business. For sure there are successful beefarmers who make money without imports but by no means all.

 

[Swarm]

Nailed his colours to the mast! If you’ve ever spoken to Murray you will soon realise he’s a rather pragmatic individual. If he found a bee that out performed others he would use it. I would suggest the name of the bee would be rather irrelevant to him and many others. That’s the reason you would get a realistic assessment!

And therein lies the problem, forget ITLD, there are far less experienced beekeepers who do the same thing. There is no regard for the bees as they flit from one to another, it all comes down to selfish greed.

 

[madasafish]

I do what masterBK does - but not is quite so large quantities but it's fine for me; I am happy with my bees which significantly exceed the average yield from hives in the UK; excess overwintered stocks/queens go quickly in spring.

I am sure that beekeepers would start to fill the gap if we couldn't get imports. The price for a queen would go up (a bit) which would be enough to make it worthwhile to breed queens and also supply nucs. A whole new UK industry would grow up!

I see from your location you are in Norfolk..

Without in any way wishing to belittle your achievements , If I were based in a warmer county I would expect to produce more honey than the UK average which is heavily skewed by beginners and small hobby beekeepers..

As it is, I too raise my own queens - it's a struggle as I have limited resources (and ability )- but I manage to exceed the UK average per hive - approx 14kg iirc.. (last year mine was 23kg)... but frankly the weather after mid June was appalling..


It would need a really bad Spring and Summer for my average not to exceed the UK average.. it is a really low bar to cross...

Again: this is not meant as a criticism of you but a general comment: I would like to achieve the averages German beekeepers reached nearly 40 years ago.

 

[B+.]

Dr Buchler had some interesting things to say about local adaptation at the NHS last year (https://youtu.be/4DVm_L7Fkqc ).

He made a number of very good points but I would like to highlight one in particular (https://youtu.be/4DVm_L7Fkqc?t=1196 ). He said that bees can develop the abilities necessary to thrive in an environment in other areas. He used the Carnica (Lunz) example to illustrate how this bee, which was selectively bred in a cold/mountainous area, performed better in Finland than the Ligustica bee that they used in that country (Finman take note).
Local adaptation isn't as simple as saying a bee that is "native" to an area will necessarily survive/perform best.

 

[mbc]

If we're posting links to video's, this is my kind of guy:
https://youtu.be/6p0zjZDgCJY
Go Joe!

 

[B+.]

If we're posting links to video's, this is my kind of guy:
https://youtu.be/6p0zjZDgCJY
Go Joe!

Nice enough guy but I was bored with his presentation. To do it justice, I bought and read his book "The principles of bee improvement". Again, I was not impressed. It is full of wishful thinking and nothing that I would really call a principle of bee improvement/selective breeding. I am sure it will appeal to the BIBBA fraternity though.

 

[SDM]

And therein lies the problem, forget ITLD, there are far less experienced beekeepers who do the same thing. There is no regard for the bees as they flit from one to another, it all comes down to selfish greed.

Who knew they were all so completely stupid. Here they are throwing away money not keeping these vastly superior in every way, local bees and passing up the opportunity to monopolize selling queens at vastly inflated prices and their prime motivation for throwing away all this money is greed.

 

[SDM]

Dr Buchler had some interesting things to say about local adaptation at the NHS last year (https://youtu.be/4DVm_L7Fkqc ).

He made a number of very good points but I would like to highlight one in particular (https://youtu.be/4DVm_L7Fkqc?t=1196 ). He said that bees can develop the abilities necessary to thrive in an environment in other areas. He used the Carnica (Lunz) example to illustrate how this bee, which was selectively bred in a cold/mountainous area, performed better in Finland than the Ligustica bee that they used in that country (Finman take note).
Local adaptation isn't as simple as saying a bee that is "native" to an area will necessarily survive/perform best.

Yet, they'll blindly deny the possibility

 

[Ian123]

And therein lies the problem, forget ITLD, there are far less experienced beekeepers who do the same thing. There is no regard for the bees as they flit from one to another, it all comes down to selfish greed.

Lol selfish.....why is it selfish to want bees that produce honey are a pleasure to handle and don’t chase the neighbours!! And in this day and age with a large number of urban beekeepers that’s rather important. Just as an aside I have 2 sites in school grounds and 1 more the other side of a school fence I have rather good relations with all. 10 years ago the care taker told me they thought there would be issues and had concerns when the hives turned up and we moved in, to date nothing!!!!

 

[B+.]

Yet, they'll blindly deny the possibility

It is interesting that Finland chose to replace the native Amm with Aml. Perhaps, they would have done better to choose Amc

 

[madasafish]

Nice enough guy but I was bored with his presentation. To do it justice, I bought and read his book "The principles of bee improvement". Again, I was not impressed. It is full of wishful thinking and nothing that I would really call a principle of bee improvement/selective breeding. I am sure it will appeal to the BIBBA fraternity though.

I read that book.

To say I was underwhelmed is being kind...The scientific principle is clearly unknown to the author...
Full of unsubstantiated claims (about the superiority of native bees) - with zero evidence.. No numbers evident.

The worst bee book on queen rearing/breeding I have read .

 

[B+.]

I read that book.

To say I was underwhelmed is being kind...The scientific principle is clearly unknown to the author...
Full of unsubstantiated claims (about the superiority of native bees) - with zero evidence.. No numbers evident.

The worst bee book on queen rearing/breeding I have read .

Interestingly, this book relates directly to this topic.

I quote from the back cover:

"Jo Widdicombe, B.Sc(Hons) Environmental Science, has been beekeeping for over 30 years and has been a member of BIBBA for more than 25 years, serving on the BIBBA Committee. Jo worked as a Seasonal Bee Inspector for 5 years and is a Bee Farmer in Cornwall running over 100 colonies. "The Principles of Bee Improvement" offers a practical approach and is an attempt to lay down guidelines which are true and applicable to beekeepers in any circumstance. Rather than searching the country, or the world, for the perfect bee to breed from, this book explains how to select and improve bees from the local population. It discusses the problems of importation, the use of natural and artificial selection, assessment of colonies and selection within a strain. By following these methods, the standards of our bees can be raised, producing gentle, hardy and productive bees."

If it did any of those things, I wouldn't have regretted buying it. IMHO, it is simply a repetition of the BIBBA philosophy and contains nothing even-remotely relevant to selection and bee improvement. Nevertheless, I am sure it will find a market among those of that mind-set. IMHO, you can learn more (for free) by reading section 3 of the coloss paper on "Standard methods for rearing and selection of Apis mellifera queens" (https://coloss.org/beebook_vol_1/st...ing-and-selection-of-apis-mellifera-queens/#3. )

 

[Murox]

Nice enough guy but I was bored with his presentation. To do it justice, I bought and read his book "The principles of bee improvement". Again, I was not impressed. It is full of wishful thinking and nothing that I would really call a principle of bee improvement/selective breeding. I am sure it will appeal to the BIBBA fraternity though.

I read that book.

To say I was underwhelmed is being kind...The scientific principle is clearly unknown to the author...
Full of unsubstantiated claims (about the superiority of native bees) - with zero evidence.. No numbers evident.

The worst bee book on queen rearing/breeding I have read .

I have not read the book but having 'struggled' through a dull you tube video would not do so. I am not a 'scientific' person but even I examine and consider the breeding values of any animals I intend to use; the lack of anything meaningful & substantiative was worrying to say the least. Is this wooly wishful stance typical ??

 

[Goran]

At my place if we are dependent on our bee breeders.. We would be in a deep, deep poop.. We are luckily that mainly we have good carnie pool which resist for now every smart plan the wise guys wreck upon them..
Mainly queens are bred by the beekeepers, not bought. The price for mated queen is 10 euros. But it is real lottery what you bought. I saw a lot of weirdos during the years..
When I started to beekeep I saw a lot different types of colonies-queen bees. Now I have few couple own " lines" which I maintain ( in fact just follow mother line, don't have time and will to intensify more with drone mothers - which would be even better).
I must say I am satisfied with bees I have, even I reduce my work with them as much possible, they are still kicking.
Sometimes, You have to be lucky.. But at the other hand, price for bees, honey, queens and other bee products are disgracefully low..