Forum Poll

[elainemary]

I agree no need to block it these days, not even the forum. It’s hardly competition. I shall certainly raise that with admin.

Thanks for listening - who has time for 2 forums and this is the best one by far!

BBKA is the only organisation for hobby beekeepers that offers a formal education program. Re ‘politics’ and past history, really don’t know about that. I’m more interested in being a better beekeeper than sitting on committees, but bear in mind there are some really good and experienced volunteers in the BBKA, who give their time generously and freely, to help and support those who want to further their education

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Knowledge is gained by reading a range of books (unless you read Yates study notes that are so incorrect it's astounding) and by experience not by passing exams.
I know someone who spent a pretty short time cramming and passing all the exams/modules even the 'master' beekeeper.
At the end of it (as Wally Shaw would say) all the time spent with his nose in books and not in beehives meant he was almost as clueless, but had a pretty certificate on his bedroom wall.

 

[JamezF]

I was contemplating taking "Module 6" earlier this year, but fairly early on came to the conclusion that it's really not organised in a way that would leave me feeling comfortable that I stood a good chance of being able to answer whatever came up in the exam. Some might argue that it's not really organised at all.

I did however find it a useful source for books to consider reading (some of which I have now read) and other information. It's just a shame the books cost so much

James

 

[Beesnaturally]

...something (genetic husbandry) with that much history behind it certainly needs no "safe space" where its advocates are insulated from criticism that may offend them. We aren't university students, and this is a general beekeeping internet forum, not a specialist Facebook group. [...] it simply isn't practical to expect people on this forum to keep out of sub-sections that are "protected", and not comment too critically on them.

We don't want the university students? We don't want to see them chatting to each other? To their professors? I thought the precept was ' Space for all'?

People tend to group according to interest. Obstructing the formation of particular groups - for whatever reason - can't be a healthy thing.

Think how bloated it would become, as each particular group demanded its own space, from "treatment-free", to "tree hive keepers", to "traditional genetic-husbandry", to "artificial-inseminators", etc etc etc.

One space is what has been suggested, characterised (tentatively) 'Alternative' beekeeping. That is an umbrella term for anything outside the establishd orthodoxy. Of its nature, its being, it challenges orthodoxy.

So, if you really do feel that you need a safe space, setting up a specialist (say) Facebook group, or similar, is the way to go. You can tell people about it on this site, and direct people to it. You aren't going to find one here, sorry, it just isn't practical to expect that.

'Go away, this is our space.' Same old.

 

[plain_hunt]

I'm not really in favour of comparmentalsing the forum .. we are all, mostly, bee keepers however we choose to look after them. There are relevancies that cut across different styles of beekeeping and the use of different hive types. I see no benefit in creating silos where only one or limited aspects of beekeeping are permitted to be discussed. We are all free to raise new threads within the general beekeeping section .. there will be discussion and challenges but as long as we keep playing the ball and not the player the present forum structure should be adequate.

I like seeing the different ideas on beekeeping and wouldn’t like it being “compartmentalised”, I think that would ruin the forum if you couldn’t see all of it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I like seeing the different ideas on beekeeping and wouldn’t like it being “compartmentalised”, I think that would ruin the forum if you couldn’t see all of it.

You could see all of it. The idea that posts in a separate section wouldn’t be challenged is unrealistic. So is there a need for one? Not many people think so

 

[Boston Bees]

One space is what has been suggested, characterised (tentatively) 'Alternative' beekeeping. That is an umbrella term for anything outside the establishd orthodoxy. Of its nature, its being, it challenges orthodoxy.

The problem with this argument is that it suggests that there IS an established orthodoxy that most people actually follow. Have you ever known a practice as fragmented as beekeeping? Think of other hobbies/practices - archery, wood-turning, goat-keeping, whatever - can you think of one that is riven with such endless disagreements over how to do things? Individual beekeepers - especially those in their first 10-15 years of beekeeping - change their minds over how to keep bees about once every 3 years, and each time it is with the fervour of the newly converted.

Almost everyone thinks that they are doing something special and different with their bees, compared to the bulk of other people. I do. But I don't feel that I need to be protected from the views of others.

Many people - those who believe that bees should live in hives that are more similar to their natural environments, for example - would be highly sceptical that anyone with 100 national hives could possibly be doing anything "alternative". But you believe you are, and that's the important thing. On this particular website, you can tell beekeepers of all approaches about it, and they can discuss it with you. If you don't want that, other more specialist sites will be better.

'Go away, this is our space.' Same old.

So, no, not that at all. It's all of our space. But it's a general internet forum, so people debate and criticise, and it will always be thus.

 

[pargyle]

Not at all. But something with that much history behind it certainly needs no "safe space" where its advocates are insulated from criticism that may offend them. We aren't university students, and this is a general beekeeping internet forum, not a specialist Facebook group.

There is only one group of people on this forum that needs protection against criticism, and that is beginners. They, quite rightly, have their own sub-forum, which generally works well I think.

With that exception, it simply isn't practical to expect people on this forum to keep out of sub-sections that are "protected", and not comment too critically on them. Think how bloated it would become, as each particular group demanded its own space, from "treatment-free", to "tree hive keepers", to "traditional genetic-husbandry", to "artificial-inseminators", etc etc etc.

So, if you really do feel that you need a safe space, setting up a specialist (say) Facebook group, or similar, is the way to go. You can tell people about it on this site, and direct people to it. You aren't going to find one here, sorry, it just isn't practical to expect that.

PS: I think that if you do create a safe space for yourself, with no-one to disagree with, you will soon become very bored. You love the to-and-fro on here really, admit it. You'd stop coming here if you didn't.

Actually ... this was tried here:

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/forums/special-interest-group-advanced-honeybee-breeding.92/
The member involved was (considered by some) being unfairly criticised for his outlook on beekeeping .. the forum owners took the view that his ideas would be best served in a separate section ... however, the attacks continued, the subsection did not thrive and the member eventually, sadly, decided that after 7000+ valuable posts he would leave the forum.

It's been proved, at least to my satisfaction, that specialised sub-forums are not really the way to go.

However, from some of the comments above (and the stats in the poll) it is clear that one of the forum issues is that people with specific and perhaps off the traditional or accepted beekeeping track are being unduly (and as they perceive it unfairly) challenged and the forum, to some, is perceived as a place that could be more friendly.

I have no wish to see the forum become a sterile place where we are reluctant to post for fear of being openly chastised for our views - but this cuts both ways - I equally don't want people to fear posting challenges to ideas or methods they disagree with.

It's a thin line and perhaps what we need is a 'Play nicely' emoticon where any member can add it to a post that raises their concerns but perhaps not to the extent that it warrants being reported for moderation.

We certainly ALL need to be aware that some people are more sensitive than others - I'm a thick skinned Yorkshireman and I have, frequently, upset people by what they perceived as my 'rudeness' when I perceived my words as 'reasonable comment'. After 70 odd years I am, at last, finding I make fewer errors of judgement in this respect. We can't change how people perceive us so we have to try and put ourselves in their shoes and change the way we present our words.

And it all starts with posts that are directed at the topic not the member. We can do better -this is undoubtedly the most informative beekeeping forum - our objective should be to make it also the most welcoming and friendly one.

 

[Wilco]

We don't want the university students? We don't want to see them chatting to each other? To their professors? I thought the precept was ' Space for all'?

People tend to group according to interest. Obstructing the formation of particular groups - for whatever reason - can't be a healthy thing.



One space is what has been suggested, characterised (tentatively) 'Alternative' beekeeping. That is an umbrella term for anything outside the establishd orthodoxy. Of its nature, its being, it challenges orthodoxy.



'Go away, this is our space.' Same old.

I don't believe you to be an idiot and I want to think better of you than that your post is disingenuous but it's quite clear you're misrepresenting what @Boston Bees said.

1. Whilst I disagree with the' university students can't cope with people offending them' (my students at least seem better than this), the point was that we are not people who are so weak as to need to be insulated from differing opinions. We can have those discussions here and people can learn from each other and differing view points. For example, whilst we disagree on many things I have still had some of my thinking challenged by you and others, and I can only think of this as a good thing.
2. We are already grouped according to interest, we are all beekeepers. Focus on what unites us even if we disagree on some things. Let's not become a literal version of the Baptist joke.
3. There are already several threads on here relating to specialist areas- another option is blogs. There is little to stop someone starting multiple threads (and we need someone to fill the void left by @Curly green finger's ).
4. There was no 'go away'. There is the opportunity for all sorts of discussions on this forum and rather than 'go away' you've been told you are welcome here. However, if you want a padded cell for it then that's not what this forum is about and there are other places you can do that. You can even link it from here, even though that may draw people away. I think it's a pretty decent offer even though I hope you pursue discussion on here.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I don't believe you to be an idiot and I want to think better of you than that your post is disingenuous but it's quite clear you're misrepresenting what @Boston Bees said.

1. Whilst I disagree with the' university students can't cope with people offending them' (my students at least seem better than this), the point was that we are not people who are so weak as to need to be insulated from differing opinions. We can have those discussions here and people can learn from each other and differing view points. For example, whilst we disagree on many things I have still had some of my thinking challenged by you and others, and I can only think of this as a good thing.

If I fished about and copied all the posts that jeered, obstructed, inflamed, ignored properly made information and carried on regardless, and plain misundertood me, in the 3 weeks following my first post here, it would total somewhere between 50 and 100. It only reached that number because I didn't give up. Most would give up much sooner.

University students (and academically-minded beekeepers generally) are not going to hang around through a blatter of posts from people who cannot, or willfully do not, understand their conversation/don't like seeing it for some reason.

2. We are already grouped according to interest, we are all beekeepers. Focus on what unites us even if we disagree on some things. Let's not become a literal version of the Baptist joke.

I don't want to focus on what unites us. I am an 'alternative' (treatment free ++) beekeeper and I want to focus on what makes me different, with others of similar inclination. Our whole interest in beekeeping is to move away from what we see as damaging orthodox practice.

3. There are already several threads on here relating to specialist areas- another option is blogs. There is little to stop someone starting multiple threads (and we need someone to fill the void left by @Curly green finger's ).

Yes, blogs have been suggested. I don't like the idea of a main section dominated by an orthodoxy that can't keep keep bees alive without systematically dosing them, and thereby genetically poisoning wild/feral bees (yep), but I may have to live with it.

4. There was no 'go away'. There is the opportunity for all sorts of discussions on this forum and rather than 'go away' you've been told you are welcome here. However, if you want a padded cell for it then that's not what this forum is about and there are other places you can do that. You can even link it from here, even though that may draw people away. I think it's a pretty decent offer even though I hope you pursue discussion on here.

I refer you to the first sentence of my reply in this post. The fact is you, and others, were damn outrageous in your reception, and the mods were asleep on the job, having long ago it seems given up any hope of controlling the mob. My hope in saying so is that a bit of truth-telling will improve the direction of the forum.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Actually ... this was tried here:

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/forums/special-interest-group-advanced-honeybee-breeding.92/
The member involved was (considered by some) being unfairly criticised for his outlook on beekeeping .. the forum owners took the view that his ideas would be best served in a separate section ... however, the attacks continued, the subsection did not thrive and the member eventually, sadly, decided that after 7000+ valuable posts he would leave the forum.

It's been proved, at least to my satisfaction, that specialised sub-forums are not really the way to go.

Not available, to me anyway.

Isn't the lesson that the forum cannot handle the demand for variety and specialisation? You lost the guy.

 

[user 20297]

Closing down threads is something that sucks. That often happens when two or three blokes (edit: or women or other) with spades can't whack the mole. @Beesnaturally is a very tough mole.

 

[Ian123]

Unfortunately on forum some post utter rubbish, those that have been around for some time have seen claims of varroa resistant bees..wonder cures….re hammed hive designs…super bees…fortunately there’s an ability to call this tripe out! In particular the number of times we’ve seen people discovering tolerant bees. Of course we are yet to see any claims backed up independently, rather the reverse. Calling out tripe when it’s seen should not be confused with an unwelcome forum or indeed portrayed as such by some Before any cry foul you can quote the Hoskins or Lusby bees as prime examples after much hullabaloo.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The owners won’t allow another section. There’s no point in arguing any more for one.

 

[roche]

Not available, to me anyway.

Isn't the lesson that the forum cannot handle the demand for variety and specialisation? You lost the guy.

I believe we lost him mostly due to the IP ownership issue.

 

[pargyle]

Not available, to me anyway.

Isn't the lesson that the forum cannot handle the demand for variety and specialisation? You lost the guy.

No.. it's not the forum, per se, that was at fault - it was a persistent number of posts that borderlined on persecution, albeit subtle at times and despite the best efforts of the mods he felt that enough was enough. He wasn't particularly wayward but some people felt, perhaps like you, that he carried his passion on his sleeve and this element of passion will, inevitably, create some dissention. Some can take it, others not.

So, can we stop this now please ... We all recognise where you are in your beekeeping but this is not the appropriate part of the forum to air it. You are welcome to post a thread anywhere in the forum or start a blog if you have something you feel is of interest to the forum at large. You can expect to be challenged - I'm treatment free too and there are a number of others - but don't expect everyone to follow our lead as there are many people who are not convinced it can work.

We won't be getting a separate section any time soon, in many respects there are already too many sub sections to the forum and the owners are not keen to add more. Accept things they way they are and move on - we are happy for you to bring your ideas to the forum; I have taken an interest in some of the things you have said and I'm sure others have - but it's not the place for a crusade so don't set your hopes too high for a massive following.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I believe we lost him mostly due to the IP ownership issue.

No, that certainly was an issue due to the breeding work he was doing but it was resolved and he did return after a short break to start posting again about the work towards treatment free. Paul has been involved with bee breeders in Europe for many years. Unfortunately there was so much ill founded antipathy on the forum to what he was trying to do that he gave up.

 

[user 20297]

I think that as the moderators are logically amongst the most knowledgeable and frequent posters, it would be a helpful improvement if they used a different "Moderator" avatar from their personal avatar when applying moderation. That would reduce the chance of their personal opinions and preferences appearing to influence their decision-making.

 

[Swarm]

It's no good talking about a sub forum that was invisible to the general membership. Nobody was even aware of this privileged position.
This issue was dealt with by Angie, you usually have two choices when your ultimatums are ignored.

I can understand the need for an area to discuss 'other' aspects of beekeeping, however, it's already been mentioned, it will not happen.
So, the best work around would be the 'Blog' section. Far from being a place free from scrutiny, it would be a place where the discussion could continue freely, without being lost in the threads about the ratios of 1-1 or 2-1 syrup.

 

[Swarm]

I think that as the moderators are logically amongst the most knowledgeable and frequent posters, it would be a helpful improvement if they used a different "Moderator" avatar from their personal avatar when applying moderation. That would reduce the chance of their personal opinions and preferences appearing to influence their decision-making.

Not to moderate a forum surely?