F2 aggression

[sussexbaker]

Hiya

For some reason I just can't get my head round the topic of F2 aggression (and there's a reason I've posted in the beginners section). As I understand it if I buy an II mated queen her offspring will be F1. So if I raise queens from her they'll be F1 queens and if they're open mated their offspring will be F2. So will workers produced from the F1 queens be likely to exhibit F2 aggression, or does that not occur until you're producing workers from F2 queens?

Thanks

Hmmmm, am I right in thinking if F1 open mates then her drones will effectively be F1 as they get all of their DNA from the queen, whilst workers will be F2 as they'll be F1 x something so will exhibit any F2 aggression?

 

[Thymallus]

A possibly simple way is to think of it is, if you buy a pure mated queen we'll say Italian for convenience she will have arrived full of Italian sperm. Her daughters will be be pure Italian (no choice), but will mate with the local toms, so your queen (F1) is pure Italian but her daughters, workers and future queens will be hybrids. She now has local Tom sperm and hence workers and queens will be mixed. But as queen has a big influence on colony behaviour you usually still have nice placid bees. But when these mate again (you're F2 if you like) there is a chance that some (not all) will become a bit more aggressive due to not being pure anymore.
It's slightly more complex than this but this I think is a good framework to think of how the F2 aggression occurs.

 

[Finman]

,
Who knows what it will be. Agressivenes is not automatic in hybrids. The queen mates with 10-16 drones and what is that mixture?

- F1 has 50% out of original genes. But it has 100% laying features of queen from mother. Drones bring hybrid vigour.

- F2 has 25% out of original genes. 75% of genes are more local than from original queen.

2 years ago I took 15 virgins from a good hive. Daugters revieled out that mother hive had hybrid vigour and its daugters had quite different features from edge to edge.

- F3 has only 12% out or original genes.

 

[sussexbaker]

A possibly simple way is to think of it is, if you buy a pure mated queen we'll say Italian for convenience she will have arrived full of Italian sperm. Her daughters will be be pure Italian (no choice), but will mate with the local toms, so your queen (F1) is pure Italian but her daughters, workers and future queens will be hybrids. She now has local Tom sperm and hence workers and queens will be mixed. But as queen has a big influence on colony behaviour you usually still have nice placid bees. But when these mate again (you're F2 if you like) there is a chance that some (not all) will become a bit more aggressive due to not being pure anymore.
It's slightly more complex than this but this I think is a good framework to think of how the F2 aggression occurs.

So the grand daughter workers will be placid, but aggression would come out in great grand daughter workers (ie offspring of F2 queens)?

Sorry my brain really isn't working, in my defence I do have my three week old daughter lying on my lap!)

 

[Finman]

.
You may have 10 daugters and only one is aggressive. That is often reality. That does not follow any predicted formula. But you just cast it away.

 

[sussexbaker]

I thought it clicked, but nope.

So initial queen is P, are queens bred from her F1 or P? I thought F1 but as they'll be 'pure' (the mother having being II'd) will they actually be P?

They will then mate locally and their offspring will be F1 (and exhibit heterosis)?

Then the third generation will mate locally and their offspring will be F2 and possibly exhibit aggression?

 

[sussexbaker]

.
You may have 10 daugters and only one is aggressive. That is often reality. That does not follow any predicted formula. But you just cast it away.

I realise that Finman but trying to get my head around the theory atm!

 

[Thymallus]

The queen you buy and bees and hive are fine, her daughter (F1) and hive is fine but this daughters offspring (F2) can now be aggressive. Finman summed it up very nicely with his gene dilution....she (the F2 second generation) is now only potentially 25% of the type of queen you bought and this hybridisation can cause more aggression. The random matings dilute the original queens genetic composition with each generation.

I think the trick is to realise the queen is a generation behind her offspring and the queen is (largely) responsible for hive behaviour despite what the the genetic make up of her daughters are.
Now try explaining that to your daughter......

 

[sussexbaker]

Now try explaining that to your daughter......

"It's all your mother's fault!"

 

[sussexbaker]

- F1 has 50% out of original genes. But it has 100% laying features of queen from mother.

I think the trick is to realise the queen is a generation behind her offspring and the queen is (largely) responsible for hive behaviour despite what the the genetic make up of her daughters are.

This might be a stupid question, but why? Aren't the laying characteristics an expression of the genes?

 

[Thymallus]

They are. BUT mum rules okay. Despite what her offspring's genetic makeup are, SHE rules the roost with an iron rod or pheromones etc. You can get some nice hybrid vigour with her 1st offspring, but MUM still rules.
Her offspring don't get the chance to show what they are like until they become queens themselves in the next generation and become MUM and can rule as thier genes dictate. Their genetic characteristics are largely displaced by a generation.

It is more complex than this but it's a simple way to understand what is happening and why it usually occurs 2 generations after.

 

[Finman]

the queen is (largely) responsible for hive behaviour despite what the the genetic make up of her daughters are.

Far from that......

non swarming and non aggressive are features made By human selection.
In nature these features are gene errors, because in wild nature calm and non swarming bees do not survive long. Swarming is a form of reproduction, and it is a basic of life.

When two genepools are mixed, the gene errors may be healed and that is why hybrids return toward original features of honey bees. Those are needed in "real wild environment".

Many think that swarming is "an error of the beekeeper". No, it is bees natural habit like stinging as well.

.

 

[Thymallus]

I did say it was more complicated than that.

 

[Finman]

They are. BUT mum rules okay. Despite what her offspring's genetic makeup are, SHE rules the roost with an iron rod or pheromones etc..

No. It does not. Workers decide when they change the queen and when they swarm. The queen follows the swarm.

 

[Finman]

It is more complex than this but it's a simple way to understand what is happening and why it usually occurs 2 generations after.

After 2 generations the hive has quite little amount of original genes, and queens have lost their ability to good laying. Breeding and selecting of bees is hard and continuous work.

 

[Finman]

.
30 years ago Finland has very strong population of German Black Mongrels. What ever pure Italian queen you had, F1 generation more or less mad but hives were big. They had laying capasity of Italians but nature of Black Mongrels.

Thanks to varroa, it killed the Black Bee. It has been easier to nurse varroa than those mad F1 mongrels.

Now Black Bee is died out here.


Then I had Elgon bees. Hybridization with Italians produced killer bees.
.

 

[Thymallus]

We seem to be going a bit off topic here.
The purpose was to try and understand why aggression with successive hybridization usually occurs second generation down stream from pure mated queen, not why they swarm.
Swapping queens between placid and aggressive colonies has been shown to reverse the nature of both hives despite the complex genetics underlying aggression genes

 

[Thymallus]

.
30 years ago Finland has very strong population of German Black Mongrels. What ever pure Italian queen you had, F1 generation more or less mad but hives were big. They had laying capasity of Italians but nature of Black Mongrels.

.

In the UK it usually second generation (assuming bought queens pure mated). It does vary as you have said. But in your case you would be saying the aggression comes in at 1st generation, not second.
Must be some wild bees to unmask/express all the various aggression genes in one go. Our mongrels can be bad, but not that bad.

Do they still have the large market on the quayside in Helsinki? Had some wonderful smoked lamprey and other fish there several years ago.

 

[Thymallus]

Apologies, I've been up for too long today and explaining things very badly
What I've been trying to say with the hypothetical Italians in a very long winded way is that the F1 bees in the colony which are half Italian and half Mongrel bee remain gentle because the Italians gentle genes still dominate over the mongrels in this particular cross. i.e Mum rules the genome, in this case.

In the cross you describe with German bees it seems it was the other way round where their aggressive genes dominated the gentle Italian genes in the first (F1) generation.

This is what many people have seen with different F1 crosses. From memory I think Italian X Carnies are one of the bad ones.

Apologies for any confusion caused.

 

[Finman]

We seem to be going a bit off topic here.
The purpose was to try and understand why aggression with successive hybridization usually occurs second generation down stream from pure mated queen, not why they swarm.
Swapping queens between placid and aggressive colonies has been shown to reverse the nature of both hives despite the complex genetics underlying aggression genes

You have your own ideas. Dont make them more complex. If you change a queen from aggressive to calm, the hive will become calm. So simple. It takes 2 months that old bees die.

And there is no rule that F2 is more agressive than other geberations. Beeks do not even know, is it F2 or f8 in mongrel environment. Just change the queen if it is aggressive. Spare queens is a solution. Not genes.

I have studied genetics in university and kept very bad bees during 50 years. Just off the topic.

Keyword: Spare queens!