Extremely aggressive bees. Help needed

[rolande]

Dried puffball mushroom in a smoker is said to knock out bees. I believe I have one at home, and as I pass by Chessington every week...

Want to give it a go? Knock them out and take away, or knock them out and find the queen.

If knocking out, you need to keep sifting through the comatose bees to avoid suffocation (if there's a lot of them). Queen may well still be hanging on the comb after others have crashed to the floor. Use a push in introduction cage over emerging brood would be my recommendation too.

 

[Beth]

Never thought of adopting them - have you been in touch with your local society? There's likely someone up for the challenge to take them and re-queen.

 

[LeoFraser]

As I mentioned earlier on this post I started beekeeping in June and it’s been a steep learning curve. For my defensive hive I removed all the brood frames into two nucs took the super below Queen excluder off and all 3 calmed right down within 24hrs. I have now found the Queen in the brood box so dealt with her and this weekend I’ll introduce the new Queen and merge the super back with the hive and merge the two nucs as I have re-queened one of them. It wasn’t pleasant when the bees were being so defensive but it will be worth it and I haven’t had to kill the colony.
What ever you decide I wish you luck

 

[enrico]

I've been reading this thread with great interest.

I have to ask this, now after some 40 years of playing with happy bees.

What am I doing that's wrong?​

I don't own a 'Bee Suit ' and have never needed one
I think I may have used a veil once this year.
I never wear gloves.
I often spontaneously check a hive wearing a short sleeved tee shirt and jeans.
I only use the smoker very occasionally
I can pull out frames and check for eggs and stores etc. and nobody gets upset.

I've only once had defensive bees (I don't believe bees can be aggressive - acutely defensive, yes) I had, I remember, about six hives on a friend's oilseed rape field. I'd been there every week to check through them and they were pussy cats. They were all very large colonies so in the end I had to wear a veil because they insisted on landing on me and walking all over my face.

Then I visited just as the bloom had dried up. This time they had guards patrolling around the hives and as soon as I approached they were after me. Luckily I had some old overalls in the Landrover and also some work gloves. With the veil tucked inside the overalls and the work gloves over the sleeves I was able to go through each of the hives. I did get the odd sting, but even back then I had no reaction to them.

Afterwards there were thousands of bee stings with venom sacs caught on the front of my overalls. I returned that night, blocked the entrance ports and brought them all home. The bees were a bit sulky and stroppy for two or three days and then back to their usual happy selves.

I read here about stroppy bees and threats of re-queening or euthanasia etc so I have to ask -
Why can't I have stroppy bees, like everybody else?
It seems so unfair!
Why Just me?
What am I doing wrong?

Malcolm B.

The main thing in your post is the 'no reaction' to bee stings. If we all had that there wouldn't be a problem. They would be no different than flies. That is where you are different to 99.9 percent of the population.
Lucky you, and long may you keep your two hives and one nuc with happy bees.
Let us know if it ever changes so at least we can smirk a little

 

[Malcolm B.]

Your having a laugh and it is not something to wish for ,I got told to clear every hive off imeadiatly from the woodland owner or he would bring a pest controler to exterminate the whole lot of hives ,they were stinging people and a child's donkey 200 yards away ,I was a lot younger then and that was the only colony to ever had bothered me but they were mean , after I moved them a few days later no one would have believed they were the same ,

Yes John, the post was very much 'tongue in cheek'. - I posted it to try an bring some balance. As of right now (9.00 a.m) there are some 1500 visitors on this site, Of them, only 80 are members. One very often hears comments about "nasty stinging bees". Many people assume if they see a bee on a flower that it will fly over and sting them.

I was a lot younger then and that was the only colony to ever had bothered me but they were mean , after I moved them a few days later no one would have believed they were the same

This is precisely the response I was hoping to see. - For people who know very little about bees to read that quite often a change of circumstances will change the bee's temperament. - Sometimes improving and other times deteriorating.

I've had to deal with a lot of bad tempered colonies in the past (most of them tracing ancestry back to John Rawson bees), it's not impossible by any means but to find or fix the issue requires opening up and if that's basically not possible for fear of the neighbors and passers by (and if you're not in the position to move them) then there's a real problem.

We have beekeepers from a very broad spectrum here and dealing with very defensive bees is NOT a "one size fits all", as Mr Roland clearly explains. There are so very many other considerations to take into account when planning a strategy and I do feel that should be highlighted for new beekeepers and others just interested in reading here.

Commercial beekeepers probably don't have the time to try different approaches. Somebody with fifty hives and just one 'difficult' colony is looking at just 2% of their stock. A hobby keeper with just one or two colonies is looking at 100% or 50% of their stock. Immediately, the Hobby keeper is far more interested in pacifying a difficult colony than the commercial keeper.

Location is also a significant deciding factor.

This is not a hive in a remote corner of a cosy rural garden.
This colony is stinging outside the hive and is in an urban environment.
With great regret the species nowadays has to co-exist with the two legged monoculture of snowflake.
Even a temporary moodiness will cause problems with neighbours.

Exactly! This location calls for a completely different strategy than if the hives were in an area not frequented by people other than the beekeeper.

The kill option is the easy option but doesn't teach one anything.

I completely agree. 'Pushing the envelope under controlled conditions' is a great way to learn. However, a colony of bees becoming ultra defensive in someone's garden on a housing estate puts a completely different complexion on subsequent actions.

You're just plain lucky I guess.

Yes, Mr Roland. That is what I said in my first post, introducing myself. I do believe I have been extremely lucky.

Lucky you, and long may you keep your two hives and one nuc with happy bees.
Let us know if it ever changes so at least we can smirk a little

I most certainly will let you all know if the bees here begin to be ultra defensive. At least I will then know I'm still in the real world with real world experiences.

Just my three pennyworth for the very large unnamed numbers of visitors reading posts here - and maybe a few lawyers gleaning information for a forthcoming prosecution!
In general, bees are not normally ultra defensive. However that temperament can quickly change for a wide variety of reasons. It is the overall circumstances that dictate the reaction and remedy by their keeper.

Many thanks for reading this far.

Malcolm.

 

[rolande]

@Malcolm B. , no need for the Mr

 

[The Poot]

I’ve had one colony like this in my time with bees and it was a great relief after killing them. It was a colony I started and finished when it turned horrible, as I wanted my garden back and I’m not too far from a school. Hated myself for doing it but it was the right decision.

 

[ericbeaumont]

the Hobby keeper is far more interested in pacifying a difficult colony than the commercial keeper

Not so, Malcolm.

Fact is that a beefarmer has as much of a vested interest in keeping calm bees as anyone. Three reasons: first, very defensive bees are a timewasting pain to work smoothly and will cost a beefarmer more if they pay others to manage. Secondly, nucs raised from stock for sale must have impeccable temper or the complaints will pile up. Lastly, enjoyable beekeeping & peaceful neighbourly relations is (or ought to be) the aim of beefarmer, beginner and everyone in-between.

I've had my share of bad-tempered bees years ago and the baptism led to a resolution to put my foot on those queens at the first chance and unite the box to something better. Nowadays I'm alert to temper and get rid before drones are produced.

 

[enrico]

I would love to disagree about , no aggressive bees. There are defensive bees and there are aggressive bees. Bees in numbers attacking at 50 meters can never, in my opinion, be described as defensive, ultra or otherwise, they are aggressive and however you deal with them matters not as long as they are dealt with.
Defensive bees change with the seasons, weather, flows, location etc. They are the ones that need second, third and fourth chances. Unless you have ever encountered aggressive bees maybe you find it hard to believe they exist.
I beg to differ

 

[ericbeaumont]

can never, in my opinion, be described as defensive, ultra or otherwise, they are aggressive

Wrong end of the telescope, Enrico: look at it from the perspective of honey bee motivation, and not from human interpretation of the outcome. Bees defend against a perceived threat, to a greater or lesser degree, and no more. To call it aggression is to buy into media fears & public anxiety.

 

[enrico]

Wrong end of the telescope, Enrico: look at it from the perspective of honey bee motivation, and not from human interpretation of the outcome. Bees defend against a perceived threat, to a greater or lesser degree, and no more. To call it aggression is to buy into media fears & public anxiety.

Now theirs an assumption. Without too much of an argument, their perception of a threat isn't necessarily the same as ours and we have to live together. When they are seeing a threat that isn't there then something has to give. We do it all the time as humans and call it war.

 

[Malcolm B.]

Not so, Malcolm.

Fact is that a beefarmer has as much of a vested interest in keeping calm bees as anyone. Three reasons: first, very defensive bees are a timewasting pain to work smoothly and will cost a beefarmer more if they pay others to manage. Secondly, nucs raised from stock for sale must have impeccable temper or the complaints will pile up. Lastly, enjoyable beekeeping & peaceful neighbourly relations is (or ought to be) the aim of beefarmer, beginner and everyone in-between.

I've had my share of bad-tempered bees years ago and the baptism led to a resolution to put my foot on those queens at the first chance and unite the box to something better. Nowadays I'm alert to temper and get rid before drones are produced.

Hello Eric,
Thank you for the response , but I think I had not made myself clear enough in the original text. I certainly wasn't suggesting that commercial keepers are more tolerant of very defensive bees.

I've had my share of bad-tempered bees years ago and the baptism led to a resolution to put my foot on those queens at the first chance and unite the box to something better. Nowadays I'm alert to temper and get rid before drones are produced.

This is the point I was attempting to make. Somebody experienced such as yourself with 70 hives can make the decision to kill and replace queens/euthanise far more quickly, easily and logically than somebody setting out with just one or two hives - perhaps recently paying £250 or so for a colony.

Malcolm.

 

[blackcloud]

The Op has stated these are feral bees.
Once all the usual hoops are jumped through then it's clear they not suited to a populated situation
Moving them out into the sticks is equally irresponsible.
Allowing the aggressive DNA to continue either by swarm or drone will only make the matters worse.

If your local feral population is reasonable then count yourself very fortunate but realise it's not the case everywhere
I have collected scores of swarms from right around the local area and year on year it's exactly the same result.
One in twenty is what most beekeepers would regard as being over the limit of tolerable behaviour.
The remainder are civilian-attackers or six-seam chalk factories.
Or both.

They are in a terrible state and it's the only responsible course of action to terminate the roadmap of bad genes encountered.
Honeybees are NOT endangered.
No queen breeder would mollycoddle bad DNA -but we don't mind buying their product.....

 

[Beagle23]

Thanks again for all the advice, it's been fascinating reading even if it has muddied my thinking. But, I have decided on a course of action.
I'm going to inspect them tomorrow, it will be ten degrees cooler, maybe that will make a difference. I've left two frames of capped ivy honey from last year with them for the last few days (they've taken all of it) and maybe that will have eased the stores issue somewhat.
If the aggression remains then it's termination time. I've given them a bit of time and a chance, if they haven't improved I think the responsible thing to do is have them removed from the gene pool