Epi-Pen.

[Poly Hive]

Err... I just consulted a Professor in General Practice and Primary care.

He referred to the "Good Samaritan Principle" or in other words if it is extremis and the throat (in particular) is closing and it is a life saving issue then you use it.

Hope this helps.

PH

 

[MandF]

Hope this helps.

PH

Me too, but I doubt it

 

[SunnyRaes]

Appartently so...

Shabro - who is to say they wouldn't have got stuck behind the car or the level crossing or called to another emergency anyway?

 

[Shabro]

Err... I just consulted a Professor in General Practice and Primary care.

He referred to the "Good Samaritan Principle" or in other words if it is extremis and the throat (in particular) is closing and it is a life saving issue then you use it.

Hope this helps.

PH

This is true under Article 7 of the Prescription Only Medicines Order 1997 which provides an exemption to the requirements of Section 58 of the Medicines Act 1968.
But saying that you would *** someone with adrenalin on sight of seeing anaphylaxis is not saving someones life, if they were conscious and able to do it themselves.
MandF stated that it was his decision whether they liked it or not, that is wrong it is their decision until they are unable to make the decision.

 

[MartinL]

Erm, I have one, so where does that leave your argument?

Oh, I see, the fact that there are zero cases of epipen misuse causing any lasting damage, never mind death. In the whole world.

It seems the epipen strict controls work better than gun licensing.

Except I have one, so where does that leave your argument again?

There are plenty of people in the country who are equally proud of the firearms in their possesion!

And presumably you can accurately retort with how your epipen came to be in your "legitimate control"?
Or did you gain it by some devious means?

 

[MandF]

This is true under Article 7 of the Prescription Only Medicines Order 1997 which provides an exemption to the requirements of Section 58 of the Medicines Act 1968.
But saying that you would *** someone with adrenalin on sight of seeing anaphylaxis is not saving someones life, if they were conscious and able to do it themselves.
MandF stated that it was his decision whether they liked it or not, that is wrong it is their decision until they are unable to make the decision.

Now now, stick to the facts. I have said that I would use it if someone was clearly dying, and I knew or suspected AS.

If they were clearly dying, they would be in no position to tell me not to use the pen, they would be too busy trying to breathe/dying.

My point about you was, if I went to your apiary and saw you thrashing around on the ground trying to breathe with an epipen sticking out of your pocket, I would use it on you. Even if you had told me before (which you just have) that you wouldnt want me to use one on you. Unless you had told me there was a medical condition (quite what, I dont know) which precluded it.

The point being, you are not the person who has to live with watching someone else die, for the rest of their lives. Who are you to sentence me to that?

Just the same as if I saw someone about to jump off a cliff - I would try and stop them even if they told me to leave them alone.

Is it clear now?

 

[MandF]

But saying that you would *** someone with adrenalin on sight of seeing anaphylaxis is not saving someones life, if they were conscious and able to do it themselves.

And please tell me where I said that. Where I would either just stab someone "on sight", or do anything if the person were conscious and able to do it themselves?

I did not, and never even got close to suggesting it. I suggest you re-read all my posts on the subject...

 

[MandF]

There are plenty of people in the country who are equally proud of the firearms in their possesion!

And presumably you can accurately retort with how your epipen came to be in your "legitimate control"?
Or did you gain it by some devious means?

Where does "pride" come into it?

I got my epipen, from my GP, by stating I was keeping bees and would like one just in case I, or one of my guests, developed AS. AND WAS ABOUT TO DIE BEFORE MEDICAL HELP GOT THERE. Added for the avoidance of any confusion.

Somehow, being a "good samaritan" and being aware of the legal and medical non-issues has turned into us being some kind of epipen vigilante/hit squad. "Quick Clive, that old lady over there just coughed... STAB HER"

Sheesh.

 

[Poly Hive]

My GP refused me one. And in my view now she was probably right given some of the "thinking" in this thread.

PH

 

[Shabro]

If the first thing you saw was me thrashing around on the ground, gasping for air, epipen or not I would expect you to check my airway for obstructions as it may be something totally different such as I just swallowed something that is stuck there.... and administering an epipen may just compound the issue.
I may have read the posts wrong, and if I have, I apologise.

 

[MandF]

So, now we have established we aren't some epipen hit squad, and that there is no legal or medical reason to NOT use an epipen on someone WHO IS DYING from AS.

If you did so, you are not going to kill someone (twice remember), nor you are not going to get sued for manslaughter or murder, regardless of how many US Legal dramas you have watched.

Are we all agreed? Excellent.

 

[MandF]

My GP refused me one. And in my view now she was probably right given some of the "thinking" in this thread.

PH

What thinking is that? I presume you think an epipen is a dangerous weapon then?

Also I presume you think my GP is grossly negligent? You know more about epipens and their medical side effects than she does?

 

[MandF]

If the first thing you saw was me thrashing around on the ground, epipen or not I would expect you to check my airway for obstructions as it may be something totally different such as I just swallowed something that is stuck there....

And I would do that. Do I have to list every single thought process that I had before making the decision to administer an epipen?

What is the issue here? Even if I didnt and jabbed you, so what? What do you think will happen?

An epipen is not a lethal weapon. Aspirin are more dangerous.

in fact, bee venom is more dangerous.

 

[MandF]

Right, after googling "epipen deaths" and finding articles on people advocating the use of epipens to avoid deaths in schools, I found this link -
http://www.uft.org/our-rights/epi-pen

And in particular this para, which sums up the situation rather nicely

What is Epinephrine and Why is it Important?

Injection of epinephrine is the treatment of choice for anaphylaxis. Because anaphylaxis can lead to death or permanent damage within minutes, timely administration of epinephrine is critical. The risk of death from untreated anaphylaxis far outweighs the risk of administering epinephrine, even if administered inadvertently to someone not having an anaphylactic reaction.

 

[MartinL]

I got my epipen, from my GP, by stating I was keeping bees and would like one just in case ..........

My GP refused me one. And in my view now she was probably right given some of the "thinking" in this thread.

I find it very difficult to believe that any GP would hand over a prescription for something as potentially deadly as an epipen "just in case", without you first making some false claim.
Did you pay the pharmacist for the prescription, which was presumably written out for your sole use?

 

[Shabro]

Possible side effects of the epipen are - increase in heart rate, stronger or irregular heartbeat, sweating, nausea and vomiting, difficulty breathing, paleness, dizziness, weakness or shakiness, headache, apprehension, nervousness or anxiety - so how would that help if I were choking on pen top I was using to fill in the hive report?

I'm not trying to knock down anything here, but as has been said before
on other peoples' posts - information is key, none of us have a crystal ball and therefore remarks get taken out of context.

 

[MandF]

I find it very difficult to believe that any GP would hand over a prescription for something as potentially deadly as an epipen "just in case", without you first making some false claim.
Did you pay the pharmacist for the prescription, which was presumably written out for your sole use?

I would find it very difficult too.

For the sake of argument, lets pretend an epipen is not potentially deadly, then how difficult would you find it to believe?

I did not make any false claim. I told her exactly what the situation was. I think her exact words were "strictly speaking I can only supply the epipen for you, but that doesnt stop you using it on someone else if you needed to".

Exactly the same as cocodemol tablets, a triangular splint, crutches etc.

Also, if you pretend that an epipen is not potentially deadly, it then makes more sense why schools in the US are starting to stock epipens for general use on little children. At the behest of parents. That is the US, home of litigation and quality legal dramas.

 

[MandF]

Possible side effects of the epipen are - increase in heart rate, stronger or irregular heartbeat, sweating, nausea and vomiting, difficulty breathing, paleness, dizziness, weakness or shakiness, headache, apprehension, nervousness or anxiety - so how would that help if I were choking on pen top I was using to fill in the hive report?

Again, I dont see your point? Lets say you were choking on a pen top, and had the symptoms of AS, with epipen poking out of your kit. I ask you what the problem is, you are blue in the face, foaming at the mouth, cant breathe, and unable or unwilling to point into your mouth.

I then swing into cavalier epipen vigilante mode, and stab you...

What are the possible outcomes if;

1. you were choking on a pen lid,
2. you had AS
3. you had something else, not AS

It seems to be suggested that somehow using an epipen is going to make your day worse, if you had 1 or 3.

Am I missing something here?

 

[MartinL]

Right, after googling "epipen deaths"

I think you'll find that both MD's and Pharmacists do a little more than search the internet in order to qualify.

Outside of internet trawls, can we ask what your own qualifications are, (Medical or Scholarly) that may quantify your potentially dangerous opinion?

 

[madasafish]

I find it very difficult to believe that any GP would hand over a prescription for something as potentially deadly as an epipe[/I]n "just in case", your sole use?

Possible side effects of the epipen are - increase in heart rate, stronger or irregular heartbeat, sweating, nausea and vomiting, difficulty breathing, paleness, dizziness, weakness or shakiness, headache, apprehension, nervousness or anxiety -

Let me be quite clear:
Martin claims an epipen is a deadly weapon

and
Shabro says it gives headaches and the symptoms of flu


!