Epi-Pen.

[MandF]

And under the Shabro convention, what would happen if a patient who was prescribed an epipen self-administered and died because they had an underlying heart condition?

Would the GP be struck off? Would GPs risk their careers if epipens were so dangerous to so many people?

 

[The Cumbrian]

you are not going to be prosecuted or blamed for trying to save someone's life.

I have a friend who administered first aid to a boy who collapsed and wasn't breathing and eventually was declared dead (From a congenital heart condition). At the inquest he had to undergo serious cross examination and the implication that because his qualification was 6 months out of date he may have done something wrong and made things worse.

Now I know this isn't the case, you know it isn't the case and deep down my friend knew it wasn't the case BUT during the inquest he became almost suicidal because of the feeling he was being blamed for the death.

If an Epi pen was administered and was later PROVED to have done harm I hate to think what emotional turmoil would result even if there were no litigation. In this day and age of private prosecutions when say a murder charge hasn't convicted I wouldn't like to guarantee there would be no legal action.

However this subject has been "done to death" nothing new coming out there will always be some who would administer drugs even against advice and those who wouldn't. I would suggest the discussion draws to a close.

As a foor note it should always be the individuals decission as to if they have a drug administed so the person above who says "its not your choice its mine" should be kept well away from all drugs such as epipens IMO.

 

[SunnyRaes]

Hey, I've seen emergency tracheotomy performed numerous times on telly, in movies, etc.... If I didn't know any differently, I could legitimately use that excuse for treating someone in that way if their life was in danger...

Same with applying butter to burns. If You've always been told that appying butter to burns is an acceptable form of treatment (and I'm sure many of you have too - some of you may still believe it!) If you've never attended a first aid course to be told differently (and someone on my last course genuinely believed that butter should be in a first aid kit), then nobody can complain if you then apply butter to burns! (using a basting brush?)

They genuinely believe they were doing the right thing, they've seen it being used elsewhere and have never been told any differently.

Arguably, they are unlikely to be successfully sued, but I'd suggest they'll then have to live with the outcome of their actions.

As good a reason as any for everyone to do some kind of first aid trianing.

Frankly, if someone is being strongly cross examined for performing CPR because their ticket is 6 months out of date, then the "persecution" should be taken out and shot. They did the right thing, period.

 

[MandF]

As they said, this discussion has been done to death before, and this cross examination was discussed, and from memory it wasnt particularly relevant to our discussion. We are not medical professionals, we dont get "cross examined".

And as for my comment about it being my choice, I think most people perfectly understand where I am coming from, and it does not mean I am cavalier about medical procedures or administering drugs "willy nilly".

As I said before, and as is always greeted with virtual tumbleweeds, if either epipens, or trying to save someones life is fraught with danger and prosecution - lets have the case law. You wont see any, for a good reason...

 

[The Cumbrian]

We are not medical professionals, we dont get "cross examined".

My friend wasn't a medical professional he was passing by and helped out as best he could and yes he was cross examined at the inquest.

For the record it wasn't the first time had had been in a situation of having to administer CPR.

 

[tonybloke]

But more seriously, hitting someone in the arse with an epipen is a little less daunting than a surgical procedure.

even more seriously, don't administer an epipen in the arse, it's supposed to be in the thigh!!

 

[MandF]

even more seriously, don't administer an epipen in the arse, it's supposed to be in the thigh!!

Oops, damned if you do, damned if you dont

 

[MartinL]

........................this subject has been "done to death"
nothing new coming out there will always be some who would administer drugs even against advice.................
As a foot note, it should always be the individuals decision as to if they have a drug administered
so the person above who says "its not your choice its mine" should be kept well away from all drugs such as epipens IMO.

Let us all hope that epipens remain under the strict control that has, so far protected the innocent from the negligent.


Uneducated, ignorant and arrogant fools, desperate for their 14 Minutes of self gratifying fame! When they could (in-fact), be infamous killers!

Ignorance may be used as defence against Murder but not Manslaughter!

 

[MandF]

My friend wasn't a medical professional he was passing by and helped out as best he could and yes he was cross examined at the inquest.

For the record it wasn't the first time had had been in a situation of having to administer CPR.

Ok, I tried to search the forum for the reference to your friends case, but cannot find it - would you care to elaborate?

Why was your friend being questioned?

As far as I was aware, and inquest is simply to determine the facts of the case, not to apportion any kind of blame.

 

[madasafish]

Well if I take all the above naysayers as correct, I should be tried for breaking the ribs of an elderly gent who I tried to resuscitate after a heart attack in his car - he was driving at the time and crashed in front of our house.


He died anyway: no-one cared about his broken ribs.

 

[MandF]

Let us all hope that epipens remain under the strict control that has, so far protected the innocent from the negligent.

Erm, I have one, so where does that leave your argument?

Oh, I see, the fact that there are zero cases of epipen misuse causing any lasting damage, never mind death. In the whole world.

It seems the epipen strict controls work better than gun licensing.

Except I have one, so where does that leave your argument again?

 

[MandF]

Well if I take all the above naysayers as correct, I should be tried for breaking the ribs of an elderly gent who I tried to resuscitate after a heart attack in his car - he was driving at the time and crashed in front of our house.


He died anyway: no-one cared about his broken ribs.

Yes they would it seems.

Me, I think you deserve a medal for trying.

But have a gratuitous smiley instead

 

[MartinL]

Ok,......................As far as I was aware, and inquest is simply to determine the facts of the case, not to apportion any kind of blame.

Facts of the case perhaps but more importantly the cause of death, i.e. Manslaughter!

You may well discover for yourself if you injected someone with epinephrine!

Fact; the deceased was rushed to hospital after being negligently injected with epinephrine.

Cause of death; ????????????

 

[Shabro]

So lets take the case where the holder of an epipen has had a massive load of stings and collapses in a heap and is unable to talk..

Under the "Shabro Convention" - see above , they will be left to die.



Time for a rethink... not real world.

If you actually read the post you will see that I said that the holder of a pen is preferrably assisted - this means that you help them - be it they direct you either verbally or directionally, they are making a conscious decision - if they hold an epipen they know the symptoms, so it shouldnt even get to the stage where they are unconscious.

I would hope that if you were the only one with me when I started showing symptoms of anaphylaxis and I had epipen then I would be able to recognise this and I would have made you previously aware, so that you could also recognise them, then you were either on the phone or hot footing it to a phone to call for an ambulance whilst I was self medicating or after you had assisted me.

The effects of the epipen only work for 15 minutes, so whilst you were busy playing doctor , valuable time is wasted calling for medical help.

Nowhere did I say that you leave them to die, as a responsible adult I would still have a duty of care under the circumstances.

 

[MandF]

Facts of the case perhaps but more importantly the cause of death, i.e. Manslaughter!

You may well discover for yourself if you injected someone with epinephrine!

Fact; the deceased was rushed to hospital after being negligently injected with epinephrine.

Cause of death; ????????????

Too much american TV. WAY too much.

For a start you need to temper your use of the word "negligently", simply does not enter into the equation here.

Second, you mention "facts of the case" - ok, show us the case you refer to?

Show us ANY case where someone administering first aid has been prosecuted for manslaughter. Or prosecuted full stop. That is ANY first aid, by ANY member of the public, in ANY country which resulted in ANY prosecution.

Should be simple enough?

 

[thorn]

Can we wait for a medical professional to post about the potential risks before we carry on with this thread? At the moment we're just going round in circles.

 

[MandF]

The effects of the epipen only work for 15 minutes, so whilst you were busy playing doctor , valuable time is wasted calling for medical help.

Sticking a pen in a leg is neither playing doctor, or going to delay a 999 call. In fact, it has been known that people can be on the phone and administer first aid at the same time.

 

[MandF]

Can we wait for a medical professional to post about the potential risks before we carry on with this thread? At the moment we're just going round in circles.

Yeah, unfortunately that wont happen, and instead we get transported into a dodgy episode of Petrocelli.

now, where's that root beer...

 

[Shabro]

Sticking a pen in a leg is neither playing doctor, or going to delay a 999 call. In fact, it has been known that people can be on the phone and administer first aid at the same time.

So those 30 seconds or one minute wouldnt cause that ambulance or responder to not get stuck behind that car, that railway crossing or stop them being called out to another emergency, seconds save lives!.
They are unlikely to be stung by a bee and then become unconscious immediately, there would be localised itching and swelling before this.

You can officially administer adrenaline for the purpose of saving life in an emergency. but they should have self administered or you should have assisted them. If they are unconscious, why are they unconscious, have they been knocked unconscious?
As said before you should not have adrenalin if you have not been prescribed it or you are not qualified, they are not to be in a first aid kit , just in case.

 

[MandF]

So those 30 seconds or one minute wouldnt cause that ambulance or responder to not get stuck behind that car, that railway crossing or stop them being called out to another emergency, seconds save lives!.
They are unlikely to be stung by a bee and then become unconscious immediately, there would be localised itching and swelling before this.

Exactly, so the first thing to do is call the emergency services, not just *** away with an epipen.

Only if someone was literally suffocating and dying, would I use the pen, either before (If I found them already at the point of suffocating) or after I call (where I would wait and hope the emergency services got there before I needed to do anything). The use of the pen would be determined by the person about to die or not.

Do I REALLY need to say that?