Epi-Pen.

[thorn]

Firstly, there's no chance of your being prosecuted for making an unsuccessful and possibly ill judged attempt to assist a person in trouble.

Secondly, there is no chance of your being sued in negligence.

In both cases, I'd best say that there may be an exception if, in order to release the boy's head from the railings you use the hacksaw on his neck rather than on the fence.

There have been a couple of cases reported in the national press of members of the emergency services failing to go into a pond to save a drowning person. The facts often don't quite tally with what's in the Daily Mail, and there are many, many unreported cases where a policeman, fireman or whoever goes in and effects a rescue, often at a risk to his own life.

However, it is often the case that in large public bodies such as the police and fire service an instruction is sent out not to risk your life to save another. This is because the organisation is nervous about being sued by the family, not of the person in trouble, but of the employee who dies in the attempt. It's yet another symptom of the health and safety department trying to justify its over staffed, overpaid and overpensioned existence. It's nothing to do with the law or the lawyers. In the same way some medical staff interprete instructions not to attend to a patient until he's been triaged by thinking that they can't treat the person who collapses in the car park. In a similar vein you get the odd school where the headteacher misinterprets an instruction to make a risk assessment so as to ban conkers in the playground. It's all stuff and nonsense so far as a possible prosecution or claim is concerned, but some - very few - jobsworths take it literally.

And the gutter press sensationalises the story, in the same way as they recently wrote of a swarm of bees "attacking" a shop.

 

[MartinL]

If I remember correctly , it is preferrable to assist the person prescribed the epipen - such as hold it up and apply pressure with their hand. If you can correctly identify anaphylaxis and they are unable to do it , I cant see any court of law convicting you for saving someones life.
A big no-no is using an epipen on someone who hasnt been prescribed it, even if they usually carry their own.

But who can correctly identify anaphylaxis???

These (potentially lifesaving) devices are deadly in the hands of those "have a go idiots" buoyed up on too many episodes of ER or Casualty! Some of them desperate to use their much cherished panacea.

Some have even made false claims to obtain them by prescription.

I predict that you will get to see both sides of this recurrent issue.

 

[thorn]

But who can correctly identify anaphylaxis???

These (potentially lifesaving) devices are deadly in the hands of those "have a go idiots" buoyed up on too many episodes of ER or Casualty! Some of them desperate to use their much cherished panacea.

Some have even made false claims to obtain them by prescription.

I predict that you will get to see both sides of this recurrent issue.

Perhaps one of the doctors among us can advise whether an epipen is deadly in the wrong hands. What are the potential risks of administering the substance when it is not needed, and how can it be administered incorrectly?

Let's not go by Google, but by someone on the forum with actual professional knowledge.

 

[MandF]

But who can correctly identify anaphylaxis???

Someone who is unaware of what anaphylaxis is, or its symptoms is unlikely to think about using an epipen, even if they knew what one was, or there was one to hand.

But anyway, any evidence of any damage being done by the unnecessary use of an epipen?

Some have even made false claims to obtain them by prescription.

Evidence of ER watching idiots making false claims to obtain epipens by prescription so they can stab people at the first sign of a wheeze?

 

[oliver90owner]

I am not a doctor, but in some instances an inappropriate dose of adrenaline can be fatal. I would think a heart attack victim is a likely example.

 

[MandF]

I am not a doctor, but in some instances an inappropriate dose of adrenaline can be fatal. I would think a heart attack victim is a likely example.

That is correct. But in the same way blasting your horn at someone in the road can.

The suggestion is, dont blast your horn at someone in the road it looks like you might hit, just in case they have an underlying heart condition and die of a heart attack.

Another hypothetical scenario. Someone in a car crash, complaining of neck pain, cannot feel their legs. Smell of petrol, and burning engine. Do you try and extract the person, because the car may go up in flames, or leave them alone because you might cause paralysis, and let them burn to death?

 

[MandF]

To get back to the main point - you are not going to be prosecuted for

1. Using an epipen (anyones) on someone who you reasonably expected was suffering anaphylaxis and looked like they were going to die.
2. Beeping your horn at someone who was in the road and you reasonably expected you might hit.
3. Dragging someone from a burning car you reasonably expected to go up in flames.

If anyone thinks different, post the case law.

 

[thorn]

To get back to the main point - you are not going to be prosecuted for

1. Using an epipen (anyones) on someone who you reasonably expected was suffering anaphylaxis and looked like they were going to die.
2. Beeping your horn at someone who was in the road and you reasonably expected you might hit.
3. Dragging someone from a burning car you reasonably expected to go up in flames.

If anyone thinks different, post the case law.

Or accept what a professional tells you.

 

[MartinL]

Medical Doctors can correctly diagnose AS.


Those, "wanabe heroes" desperately wielding their ill-gotten epipens??
Well, it's rather like harpooning someone screaming and splashing around in a pond.

Yes you would prevent them drowning but!!!!!!!

 

[MandF]

If it was beyond the wit of the ordinary man to diagnose AS, and/or administering an epipen when not necessary was dangerous, why do they prescribe them to ordinary people?

Rhetorical question.

You do whatever your conscience dictates, just be aware that if it looks to me like you are suffocating and going to die, and I suspect AS, and I have an epipen to hand, I WILL stab you, ok

I will also accept the pint you buy me for saving your life afterwards.

 

[MartinL]

If it was beyond the wit of the ordinary man to diagnose AS, and/or administering an epipen when not necessary was dangerous, why do they prescribe them to ordinary people?

Rhetorical question.

You do whatever your conscience dictates, just be aware that if it looks to me like you are suffocating and going to die, and I suspect AS, and I have an epipen to hand, I WILL stab you, ok

I will also accept the pint you buy me for saving your life afterwards.

Administering an epipen when not necessary IS DANGEROUS

It can be deadly.

 

[MandF]

Correction CAN BE dangerous.

The vast majority of the time it isnt.

Why dont you actually research it - how many people have been damaged/killed from unnecessary epipen use?

Whether I use an epipen on you or not is not your choice, its mine. and I would use it.

 

[Shabro]

Correction CAN BE dangerous.

The vast majority of the time it isnt.

Why dont you actually research it - how many people have been damaged/killed from unnecessary epipen use?

Whether I use an epipen on you or not is not your choice, its mine. and I would use it.

For that reason, unless you are a medical doctor / qualified nurse I wouldnt want you anywhere near an epipen. If anyone carries an epipen that has been prescribed to them , they will know the signs, and if they need it should ask for assistance before it becomes more of an issue.
If you are on the phone to the ambulance service and make them aware you have an epipen , if they say use it , use it under their direction.
If you administer it to someone unnecessarily and end up complicating matters, then I'm sure you wouldnt have a leg to stand on.
unless an epipen has been prescribed it, you shouldnt have it, unless you are qualified to prescribe it.

Its like saying I have an unlicensed gun, if I feel like it , I will shoot you.

 

[Silly Bee]

Most councils and governmemt at all levels are very risk averse. They are usually more afraid of being sued than the potential bad publicity of standing aside.

Bear in mind that epipens are not prescription only everywhere; in Canada you can buy them over the pharmacy counter. Practically, it's up to any individual to assess what they can do in the absence of professional advice or help. I'd be happy that most most on here would be capable of making a reasonable decision, just as much here in the UK as in Canada.

It's Health and Safety gone mad.

 

[MandF]

For that reason, unless you are a medical doctor / qualified nurse I wouldnt want you anywhere near an epipen. If anyone carries an epipen that has been prescribed to them , they will know the signs, and if they need it should ask for assistance before it becomes more of an issue.
If you are on the phone to the ambulance service and make them aware you have an epipen , if they say use it , use it under their direction.
If you administer it to someone unnecessarily and end up complicating matters, then I'm sure you wouldnt have a leg to stand on.
unless an epipen has been prescribed it, you shouldnt have it, unless you are qualified to prescribe it.

Its like saying I have an unlicensed gun, if I feel like it , I will shoot you.

How will someone on the end of a phone know for sure a patient is suffering AS?

How will the patient themself know?

"Wouldnt have a leg to stand on" - again, totally unfounded comment. You wouldnt need any leg to stand on, you are not going to be prosecuted or blamed for trying to save someone's life.

And it is nothing like using a gun and saying you will shoot someone. An epipen is nothing like a gun. THAT IS WHY EPIPENS ARE NOT LICENSED, and are dished out under prescription.

So, we still have the 2 fallacies here;

1. An epipen is inherently dangerous (it isnt) and that it is likely to injure or kill someone if used (it isnt).
2. Someone could be prosecuted for causing harm when trying to save someones life (they cannot).

Instead of getting hysterical, can people please "play the ball" and prove or provide links to evidence that either an adrenaline injection is inherently dangerous, OR you can be sued for neglect or whatever if you harm someone when trying to save their life.

Lets stick to the facts.

And with all due respect, if I stand and watch you die due to AS, and I saw an epipen sticking out of your pocket, it is ME who has to live with that for the rest of my life - not you - I let you die remember.

Oh, and also, if an epipen is so dangerous, please explain why they are prescribed to people without an ECG being performed to check your heart is up to it? They are no more dangerous than aspirin.

 

[coffin dodger]

I will also accept the pint you buy me for saving your life afterwards.

Does this also count if you need to do an emergeny trachaeotomy using a hive tool and smoker spout

CD

 

[SunnyRaes]

Actually, I'd suggest MandF would have a leg to stand on, as they thought they were doing the right thing and trying to save your life. If they did have an EpiPen, I'd also suggest they'd also be able to recognise the signs and symptoms, so would have a fairly decent change of identifying it on you.

 

[madasafish]

For that reason, unless you are a medical doctor / qualified nurse I wouldnt want you anywhere near an epipen. If anyone carries an epipen that has been prescribed to them , they will know the signs, and if they need it should ask for assistance before it becomes more of an issue.
...........etc

So lets take the case where the holder of an epipen has had a massive load of stings and collapses in a heap and is unable to talk..

Under the "Shabro Convention" - see above , they will be left to die.



Time for a rethink... not real world.

 

[MandF]

Does this also count if you need to do an emergeny trachaeotomy using a hive tool and smoker spout

CD

no chance, I dont do blood.

But more seriously, hitting someone in the arse with an epipen is a little less daunting than a surgical procedure.

Id administer heart massage, but wouldnt contemplate open chest heart massage.

 

[MandF]

Actually, I'd suggest MandF would have a leg to stand on, as they thought they were doing the right thing and trying to save your life. If they did have an EpiPen, I'd also suggest they'd also be able to recognise the signs and symptoms, so would have a fairly decent change of identifying it on you.

Bingo