Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[Wilco]

Thanks Wilco, they are in a double nuc and positively bouncing. I really want to get these set up with more space but the weather is terrible and not looking like improving for a week or more. Saturday says twelve degrees but sunny so I may get a chance but I have another six in a similar position.
I know the usual response when local adaption is raised but I see it every year, the fittest, strongest colonies are the ones headed by the farm queens.

Triple nuc them?

We've got a couple of frosts due in the next two days then warming up quite a bit although not as nice as it was. Hope you get a good spell.

I haven't got enough data from my colonies to draw conclusions- logically the concept makes sense to me although this year I did start to compare a few colonies- buckfast, local swarm, daughter from an Irish AMM type although they weren't all in the same boxes over winter. The local swarm (my favourite and will be trying to breed a few daughters from her this year) actually started off with the least brood compared to the others but has at least managed to catch up. Will continue observing my own though.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If the koeniger's decades of research, distilled into a nicely presented talk is too time consuming, there's no hope at all.

It’s a great lecture. I’m glad the honey show have kept it in their archives. Their book is a good read too.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Admittedly, I did assume that you'd be referring to fittest drones simply because they're the ones it makes sense to want on the wing.

In full, I wrote:
"Theory aside, using brood nest drone comb is of course known to be a very effective way of boosting hits from desirable sources. Unlimited brood nests plus not balancing goes some way toward achieving the same thing - the stronger hives supply more drones, increasing the likelihood of desirable marriages."

I think its the mating competing that locates the fittest drones (in the sense I spoke of). In the context of wishing to promote a strain/and or character/character-set we would choose which hives to increase drone production, hoping that the numbers game would work to our advantage, and drones from our chosen/boosted hives would be high among the winners.

I think that cashes out the rationale in a reasonable way?

 

[Beesnaturally]

If the koeniger's decades of research, distilled into a nicely presented talk is too time consuming, there's no hope at all.

I watched the first 10-15 minutes and its _very_ slowly presented, and it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. Yep, I'm a busy chap. A distillation of the core ideas could be read in 1 minute. 1/70th of the time. Efficient use of learning time = more learning.

If you insist its worthwhile perhaps I'll try some more.

 

[rolande]

we would choose which hives to increase drone production, hoping that the numbers game would work to our advantage, and drones from our chosen/boosted hives would be high among the winners.

Which in a round about way brings us back to my starting point, is there any reason we should assume greater drone production equals, at minimum, the same quality of drones as a lower production.? We know that it's common practice to keep a breeder queen in a small unit and this isn't just to extend her laying life.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Which in a round about way brings us back to my starting point, is there any reason we should assume greater drone production equals, at minimum, the same quality of drones as a lower production.? We know that it's common practice to keep a breeder queen in a small unit and this isn't just to extend her laying life.

Is there any reason to think it wouldn't? particularly if you are ensuring good nutrition.

Perhaps we'll find more insights into these and related questions in these short, scannable texts:

Drone mother colonies – numbers and positioning
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a...459/drone-mother-colonies-number-position.pdf
Drone honey bees – rearing and maintenance
https://powell.ca.uky.edu/files/drone-bee-rearing-and-maintenance_002_0.pdf

 

[rolande]

I watched the first 10-15 minutes and its _very_ slowly presented, and it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. Yep, I'm a busy chap. A distillation of the core ideas could be read in 1 minute. 1/70th of the time. Efficient use of learning time = more learning.

If you insist its worthwhile perhaps I'll try some more.

Well no, if you know it already then obviously it would be a waste of your time to continue watching.

All I'll say is that condensing everything down to save time is a guaranteed way to miss the interesting bits that provoke thought.

As for being busy, you yourself manage to find time to write some very long posts on this forum which aren't based on a fraction of the experience the Koeniger's have. I can already see a time redistribution scenario forming!

 

[Beesnaturally]

Well no, if you know it already then obviously it would be a waste of your time to continue watching.

As for being busy, you yourself manage to find time to write some very long posts on this forum which aren't based on a fraction of the experience the Koeniger's have. I can already see a time redistribution scenario forming!

Oh give over! We are all familiar with different things. I'm not saying there is nothing to learn in there for me, just that there might be quicker ways, and ways more relevant directly to this area - for me. As the man said: There are many books, and life is short.

I can write long posts quickly I'm sure you are right about relevant experience, and, having watched a bit more (at 1 1/2 speed), I've learned from her account.

But you must know what its like: if you watched every suggested video you'd waste a lot of time and live on cornflakes. A good recommendation is one that sends you to the source (Youtube, where you can get more info), and tells you why its relevant, and if possible., where the relevance lays in the timeline.

 

[Swarm]

Triple nuc them?

We've got a couple of frosts due in the next two days then warming up quite a bit although not as nice as it was. Hope you get a good spell.

I haven't got enough data from my colonies to draw conclusions- logically the concept makes sense to me although this year I did start to compare a few colonies- buckfast, local swarm, daughter from an Irish AMM type although they weren't all in the same boxes over winter. The local swarm (my favourite and will be trying to breed a few daughters from her this year) actually started off with the least brood compared to the others but has at least managed to catch up. Will continue observing my own though.

It crossed my mind but I don't have enough boxes left, only the closed bottom type nucs. The plan was to get them into double brood with boxes dummied to nine frames, another look at the forecast says sunny 15 degrees for next Wednesday. It's got to happen soon regardless.

 

[rolande]

Is there any reason to think it wouldn't? particularly if you are ensuring good nutrition.

Perhaps we'll find more insights into these and related questions in these short, scannable texts:

Drone mother colonies – numbers and positioning
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a...459/drone-mother-colonies-number-position.pdf
Drone honey bees – rearing and maintenance
https://powell.ca.uky.edu/files/drone-bee-rearing-and-maintenance_002_0.pdf

Interesting read but nothing regarding egg quality in relation to the number laid for instance , I really didn't expect there would be in all honesty.

Just thoughts, might be nothing in it but instinct tells me that there possibly is.

 

[Bazzer]

It crossed my mind but I don't have enough boxes left, only the closed bottom type nucs. The plan was to get them into double brood with boxes dummied to nine frames, another look at the forecast says sunny 15 degrees for next Wednesday. It's got to happen soon regardless.

You could nadir the closed bottom brood boxes under the Maisemore double nucs - or is the bottom box closed in those too? I am increasingly moving over to just using the brood extenders with separate floors because of the greater flexibility it provides when making splits etc

 

[Swarm]

I do that, most nucs are the bodies on my own UHE floors but some are the other type. Unfortunately (or fortunately) last year was quite busy.

 

[Apiarist]

Apiarist isn't interested in Amm, I think we all realise that.

Why am I breeding them then?

 

[0bee-1]

well that was a fascinating talk and thank you for posting it here... a distillation of years of research. really thought provoking on drones DCAs and queen mating... thank you

 

[Erichalfbee]

well that was a fascinating talk and thank you for posting it here... a distillation of years of research. really thought provoking on drones DCAs and queen mating... thank you

You’re welcome. I was fascinated by it all when I saw it at the honey show.

 

[Apiarist]

I've watched this lecture before and similar ones, and recognize the research papers that are being paraphrased BUT I must have missed this comment;
"...you can have hundreds of drones following the Queen and if you pull it (the queen dummy) down they (the drones) do not follow..."
I had assumed that whenever a (virgin) queen arrived at a DCA all the drones would immediately fly towards her and try to mate with her... Gudran Koeniger seems to be contradicting what I thought was a reasonable assumption!

 

[rolande]

I've watched this lecture before and similar ones, and recognize the research papers that are being paraphrased BUT I must have missed this comment;
"...you can have hundreds of drones following the Queen and if you pull it (the queen dummy) down they (the drones) do not follow..."
I had assumed that whenever a (virgin) queen arrived at a DCA all the drones would immediately fly towards her and try to mate with her... Gudran Koeniger seems to be contradicting what I thought was a reasonable assumption!

Maybe this observation reflects a basic building block to the previous mentioned possibility of mating height preference of different subspecies.

 

[Swarm]

I'm sure I remember reading about bordering ranges of sub species and low hybridisation.

I managed to get a six frame nuc moved into a new hive on nine frames over the weekend, it was sunny but still very cold and bitter if a cloud came over. She had brood on every frame and quite a lot of comb built under the frames that needed cutting away, I didn't hang about but very happy about those bees.
I have two sisters that we raised from one of my friend's Amm queens last year and took to the farm for mating, both in double nucs but one was dummied to ten frames. I gave her a couple of combs and they seem ok for space whereas the other one is stuffed. Smashing bees.
There are six more doubles at this site that need hiving up and a few desperate single box hives as well. Looks like a nice weekend for a chance to do the rounds and do a proper assessment.

 

[Lislarybees]

I'm sure I remember reading about bordering ranges of sub species and low hybridisation.

I managed to get a six frame nuc moved into a new hive on nine frames over the weekend, it was sunny but still very cold and bitter if a cloud came over. She had brood on every frame and quite a lot of comb built under the frames that needed cutting away, I didn't hang about but very happy about those bees.
I have two sisters that we raised from one of my friend's Amm queens last year and took to the farm for mating, both in double nucs but one was dummied to ten frames. I gave her a couple of combs and they seem ok for space whereas the other one is stuffed. Smashing bees.
There are six more doubles at this site that need hiving up and a few desperate single box hives as well. Looks like a nice weekend for a chance to do the rounds and do a proper assessment.

Looking great!!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I know this is not really a thread I dip into but I have just moved on two of Ceri’s black nucs and they looking bloomin great.