Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[Nighthaunt]

I know this is not really a thread I dip into but I have just moved on two of Ceri’s black nucs and they looking bloomin great.

Going down to Wales to pick up 3 of Ceri’s NUC’s - 1 for me and 2 other local beeks.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Going down to Wales to pick up 3 of Ceri’s NUC’s - 1 for me and 2 other local beeks.

I had two queens last year. Looking forward to working with them.

 

[Apiarist]

I'm sure I remember reading about bordering ranges of sub species and low hybridisation.

Where Italy and Slovenia meet the ligustica and carnica subspecies naturally and freely hybridise, they have a section allocated for them in beebreed.eu

I've also seen DNA analysis that showed different subspecies cross breed with each other freely and randomly (except for A m mellifera with non-A m mellifera drones), and when this was not observed, like across a mountain range such as the Carpathians, it could be explained by the inferred presence of eco-types.

 

[Apiarist]

Maybe this observation reflects a basic building block to the previous mentioned possibility of mating height preference of different subspecies.

Yes, I think it may have a part to play, but this raises more questions than answers: IF this in some way explains the lack of observed mating (from DNA analysis) between Amm queens and non-Amm drones, then why is there apparently free mating between queens and drones of other differing subspecies?

 

[rolande]

Yes, I think it may have a part to play, but this raises more questions than answers: IF this in some way explains the lack of observed mating (from DNA analysis) between Amm queens and non-Amm drones, then why is there apparently free mating between queens and drones of other differing subspecies?

I'm pretty sure that there was speculation that all the subspecies had time/height preferences a few years ago but can't remember the sources other than the previously mentioned book.

*If* that's the case, maybe your question could be answered simply by the Amm having a more remote preference to that of the others. Doubt there will be any indepth research on this any time soon but its an interesting possibility.

 

[elainemary]

Inspected 13 colonies last couple of days - the last and my ‘favourite’ I’m saving til last at home

All doing well and all over wintered fine, no losses for 4th year running. Sorry not being smug, just feel I’ve discovered the ‘right’ bees for where I live.

All colonies in full hives (4 are in double Nucs) are doing v well with 7-8 frames of brood. Had pre- planned and took a spare brood box to extend frames from 10-16 in colonies that needed more space.

There is one hive that I couldn’t find the queen in, after 2 passes. My purpose for this inspection was clipping and remarking where needed. Gave up as think it stresses them on their first ‘proper’ inspection. This colony is the only one where most of the bees have ‘turned’ from the usual black mongrels to all ‘gingers’. Also the only hive with v few stores. Maybe 4 super frames with a bit in each.

Compared to the black bees in my ‘favourite’ strain(s) that I queen reared from last year. All ‘black’ bee colonies had between 1/2 and 1 full super of what I’m guessing is dandelion / willow honey. That’s unusual for April in Yorkshire as flow doesn’t start properly til May.

Reinforced in my mind that whilst ‘gingers’ can be nice and calm they need more stores to raise brood than my other bees

Just an observation. Would perhaps be a different story in a different / milder part of the country. One of the downsides of keeping black bees I’ve found is you can queen rear from a gentle colony and unfortunately it doesn’t mean they stay gentle. I don’t have really bad colonies but I’ve learnt to not tolerate bad temper. 2 have been added to my ‘squish’ and re queen list for this seasons queen rearing, one black and one ginger. Temper is my number one priority, followed by a nice honey crop.

 

[Swarm]

Visited one of my friend's apiaries today, it used to be a good site but we abandoned any further hope of queen rearing there, too many orange bands appearing in the last couple of years and temperament is not what it used to be. None of the colonies were outright mean but leaving the combs, jumping on fingers and making a fuss, enough to be a nuisance (the worst) most were acceptable, others not and that would include a Buckfast colony who also made a big fuss. I put this down to the drop in temperature and the wind beginning to pick up, as I was getting a bit cold in my ventilated suit. Then we opened the next hive, a 2020 queen raised at his home apiary, bees are black as coal and hardly moved on the combs, this is the same for all his colonies raised in that apiary. There was another nicely behaved colony, a blue queen again, descended from one of Ceri's, these are mostly orange banded now.
Whereas I don't think you can guarantee gentle from gentle, I think that could be said regardless of their colour. I once had a black queen with a colony that were almost all orange and they were absolute darlings. Her daughters were literally Jekyll and Hyde (kept one, didn't keep her sister)
Up at the farm, we have some lovely colonies and some who are nice enough, 3-5 on a scale of 1-5 but that could all change like it has before.
Anyway, found charged cells in one and we finished marking the queens before it rained.

 

[elainemary]

Visited one of my friend's apiaries today, it used to be a good site but we abandoned any further hope of queen rearing there, too many orange bands appearing in the last couple of years and temperament is not what it used to be. None of the colonies were outright mean but leaving the combs, jumping on fingers and making a fuss, enough to be a nuisance (the worst) most were acceptable, others not and that would include a Buckfast colony who also made a big fuss. I put this down to the drop in temperature and the wind beginning to pick up, as I was getting a bit cold in my ventilated suit. Then we opened the next hive, a 2020 queen raised at his home apiary, bees are black as coal and hardly moved on the combs, this is the same for all his colonies raised in that apiary. There was another nicely behaved colony, a blue queen again, descended from one of Ceri's, these are mostly orange banded now.
Whereas I don't think you can guarantee gentle from gentle, I think that could be said regardless of their colour. I once had a black queen with a colony that were almost all orange and they were absolute darlings. Her daughters were literally Jekyll and Hyde (kept one, didn't keep her sister)
Up at the farm, we have some lovely colonies and some who are nice enough, 3-5 on a scale of 1-5 but that could all change like it has before.
Anyway, found charged cells in one and we finished marking the queens before it rained.

Yes I relate to the problem re poor bees kept by others and poor mating, losing key characteristics. Seems 50:50 in my usual out apiaries whether the traits are passed on or not.

I’m trying a new apiary site this year, where for the first time I’m going to try producing more drones unrelated to the queens I’ll be mating. The mating site will be directly above my new apiary in a large garden.

Also doing a bit of drone flooding with my neighbour at home, but as it’s a bit more remote there’s always more chance of inbreeding. Produced a nice queen with all black, calm offspring for the first time last September at home. Before then I had issues with inbreeding and matings with Buckfast from another neighbour. I think he’s moving away from Buckfast so that’s helping.

I’ve realised you need to at least try and do more on the drone mating side and not just focus on the queen.

 

[Swarm]

Will this cold wind ever go? Last few visits have been very miserable trying to shield the hives from the wind, the colonies are building very well but one of the Amm queens is a goner so I'll shake them out when it's a bit warmer. Her sister had brood on fourteen frames of eighteen and the super was heavy, they need another.
I had two colonies to check on Wednesday that hadn't been opened this year, an unmarked queen raised last September and a 2020 daughter of one of Ceri's.
I had to almost break in to the first and I must have strained my hand at some point, still really painful today. They were very good, even the bottom brood, no performing at all. I found her in the top box, marked and hive together again.
As I removed the second frame in the next hive I could see the queen immediately on the next comb, blue disc, so easy to spot. I admired her for a while and did a quick scan of the upper box frames, a nice pattern and no signs of any intentions, a look down into the bottom box tells me they are doing well. Again, these will need another super.
Moved on to the next unmarked queen and found a charged cell and plenty of cups but found and marked the queen, moved her to a nuc. A year to the day for first signs of the season.
One thing I like about the vented suit is a better idea of the temperature and conditions, I was starting to shiver. A quick check and remark of the green queen and leave it at that. She was there and still the same black beast but her wings are looking ragged now and I guess the bees have decided it's her time, I found a supersedure cell on the next frame.
Just for old times' sake, I'd love to see mother and daughter on the same comb.

 

[Lislarybees]

View attachment IMG_7967.MOV
Love this time of year. Some good sunny spells here in the West of Ireland and all the hives look like they’ve been spray painted yellow on the inside with all the dandelion coming in.

 

[Lislarybees]

Have my swarm traps set up now aswell. If I’m half as lucky as last season il be delighted.

 

[Swarm]

Love the second photo.
Yes, Dandelion time and glowing yellow combs, it's a great time of year. Looks like some lovely weather you are having too.
The sun was shining today so I got the last queen marked and added more supers, the colonies are growing fast.
These two walked over to say hello, the 2019 is a lovely queen from Ceri.

 

[Swarm]

Feeling of unrest with almost every colony, they are looking really strong and fit and charged cells are appearing. I know it's that time but the mood has been off so far this year with all but a few. The queens are all laying beautiful bullseye patterns with pollen distributed throughout and contrary to the usual opinion, even the outer frames are brooded. I harvested the first little batch of queen cells.
I rotated a few doubles to move the honey arcs and add laying space. The 2020 daughter of Ceri's queen above donated a lot of brood for nucs last year, nice receptive bees. They still produced honey and it looks like she is doing her stuff again this year and always puts in an appearance.

 

[Robinredcar]

Feeling of unrest with almost every colony, they are looking really strong and fit and charged cells are appearing. I know it's that time but the mood has been off so far this year with all but a few. The queens are all laying beautiful bullseye patterns with pollen distributed throughout and contrary to the usual opinion, even the outer frames are brooded. I harvested the first little batch of queen cells.
I rotated a few doubles to move the honey arcs and add laying space. The 2020 daughter of Ceri's queen above donated a lot of brood for nucs last year, nice receptive bees. They still produced honey and it looks like she is doing her stuff again this year and always puts in an appearance.

Hi, love the look and sound of your queen and her offspring. Where abouts are you in the country please as I'm thinking of trying to requeen my colonies, is Ceri on this site?

 

[Erichalfbee]

is Ceri on this site?

@mbc
https://www.cardiganbayhoney.co.uk/

 

[Robinredcar]

@mbc
https://www.cardiganbayhoney.co.uk/

Thanks very much!

 

[Robinredcar]

Love the second photo.
Yes, Dandelion time and glowing yellow combs, it's a great time of year. Looks like some lovely weather you are having too.
The sun was shining today so I got the last queen marked and added more supers, the colonies are growing fast.
These two walked over to say hello, the 2019 is a lovely queen from Ceri.

Do you keep these in a natinoal brood box or are they more prolific requiring more space?

 

[Swarm]

Some are in singles but most are in doubles, though I dummy these down to around eighteen frames.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do you keep these in a natinoal brood box or are they more prolific requiring more space?

Mine are comfortably filling a 14x12. I have two supers in each. They were queens I bought from Ceri in Autumn overwintered in 6 frame nucs

 

[Robinredcar]

Some are in singles but most are in doubles, though I dummy these down to around eighteen frames.

I was hoping I could keep some more near native on single brood boxs but I think I'll go brood and a half to be safe, I planned on leaving a super over winter anyway.