Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[E&MBees]

Wow!!
That's a strong, healthy colony, a credit to the beekeeper.

Thanks Steve

 

[Apiarist]

...So someone who has been treatment free for 25 years has been ‘lucky’? ....are all these beekeepers in Louth just lucky? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/0005772X.2018.1431000

You need to read the Papers that you are citing... I don't come from Ireland but it appears even I know your geography better than you!

If you get 1024 people to flip a coin ten times one of them will guess it correctly each time, it's called luck.

BUT as I can't convince you based on the science I have presented, then why don't you present your own science... IF what you are saying is correct and the bees in question in North Dublin.... are treatment free because of characteristics (genetics) of the bees (with maybe the help of an OMF) then simply take a frame with capped drone brood from a Hive WITH Varroa mites (I would imagine a nuc/hive would be moved to the away apiary that has varroa mites) and place this frame into the hive with these bees that do not need treatment, leave them untreated and in one year we can see who is right... it would be a very simple thing to do, which would add so much strong evidence in support of your argument (and the claim of the author's Paper ... from North Dublin) that it basically would be considered proof that these bees are treatment free because of something to do with the bees.... AT which point there would be a queue down the road for these queens - I would be at the front ... tentatively conceding that I was wrong, and hopefully acknowledge that I was 100% wrong the following year... and at which point you would have a new member of NIHBS and it's most evangelistic supporter!

I'll hold my breathe for the Drone Frame test to be done (by the way if you to Google it, I believe it's called the James Bond method)

 

[JamezF]

If you get 1024 people to flip a coin ten times one of them will guess it correctly each time, it's called luck.

Not actually true as stated, but I'm sure no-one is really that worried nor interested in the maths, so I shan't derail the discussion further.

James

 

[Apiarist]

(emphasis added by me for clarity)

...A study in Poland has suggested that Amm show some traits for self-selection even when they are in close proximity to colonies of Carniolan bees.

Quote from the Study, "The progeny of AMM queens was fathered almost exclusively by AMM drones"
There are ways how some carnica DNA ends up in Queen, in minute quantities, but I'm not going to discuss the details of queen mating with a lady on an open forum, suffice to say, it appears from the evidence you don't need to be concerned if a person beside you starts keeping carnicas at least and probably also Buckfasts.

That trait clearly does not work 100% - other wise you would still have a much healthier (you mean a higher percentage of AMM DNA) population of pure Amm in the UK.

This Polish (and later Irish) research is clearly against what we ALL assumed, I cannot explain it, but unless you can present alternative Scientific Evidence to contradict it....

In Ireland I can see from lived experience that this trait is not 100% effective - just within the last couple of years a Buckfast breeder moved into one of Irelands longest running Voluntary Areas of Conservation for Amm and the result has been cross breeding. This VCA preserves some of the most important genetics within the Irish population of Amm. And that same scenario can be seen repeated in many locations.

OK, now you have a chance to collect scientific evidence and refute the two sets of research in Poland and Ireland, collect samples of the bees and have them genetically tested, this costs from £20 to £60 per sample, however some Universities, etc. have more simple testing systems which will give you what you need... maybe you could provide these samples to the Author of the Irish research; it's a big thing to discover evidence that refutes previously published peer reviewed research.... will I hold my breathe for this as well?

 

[Apiarist]

If you get 1024 people to flip a coin ten times you can expect one of them will guess it correctly each time, it's called luck.

Not actually true as stated, but I'm sure no-one is really that worried nor interested in the maths, so I shan't derail the discussion further.
James

There fixed for you.

 

[mbc]

(emphasis added by me for clarity)


Quote from the Study, "The progeny of AMM queens was fathered almost exclusively by AMM drones"
There are ways how some carnica DNA ends up in Queen, in minute quantities, but I'm not going to discuss the details of queen mating with a lady on an open forum, suffice to say, it appears from the evidence you don't need to be concerned if a person beside you starts keeping carnicas at least and probably also Buckfasts.



This Polish (and later Irish) research is clearly against what we ALL assumed, I cannot explain it, but unless you can present alternative Scientific Evidence to contradict it....


OK, now you have a chance to collect scientific evidence and refute the two sets of research in Poland and Ireland, collect samples of the bees and have them genetically tested, this costs from £20 to £60 per sample, however some Universities, etc. have more simple testing systems which will give you what you need... maybe you could provide these samples to the Author of the Irish research; it's a big thing to discover evidence that refutes previously published peer reviewed research.... will I hold my breathe for this as well?

It's not black and white.
While virgins may mate within subspecies out of preference, the mechanisms honey bees have to avoid inbreeding make the likelihood of this to happen exclusively in a mixed drone environment over a few seasons matings vanishingly small.
Once you have introgression it would be extremely difficult to reverse the process, how is a virgin expected to let a 100% amm drone mount her but identify and dismiss the next drone who happens to have a buckfast forebear and is only 75% Amm?
Your arguments for native bee keepers not to be concerned over foreign bee pollution at their mating sites are based on only best possible outcomes occurring time after time after time.

 

[Boston Bees]

I'm don't have AMM (as far as I know) and have no dog in this fight. But I kind of thought this blog was going to be somewhere for AMM owners to be left alone to discuss their bees. For a few weeks that seemed to be what it was. Now, however, the angry mob have arrived and are shouting at people. It seems a bit of a shame.

Maybe, in this specific blog, we can just leave them be to believe what they want?

From what Dani said the other day, I thought that's what the etiquette for blogs was meant to be.

 

[elainemary]

I started this blog for those who are interested in Amm/Native bees as you outlined. Nowt wrong with a bit of discussion or difference of opinion if we can all remain polite but I doubt that would be the case with a thread created to discuss contentious issues?
I realise it can become quite disjointed but it's all in one place, some contentious issues arise from comments made here, which would mean moving them.

I'm keen to hear the honest experiences of others, learn how things are in other areas. I like the idea of VCA's and would like to hear from anyone at Lleyn&Eifionydd, where many are also treatment free.

You are quite right about 100% mating certainty and it may or may not be the case that Amm virgins are picky but if there is limited or no other choice, I think I would confidently say she will make do. The higher percentages are in areas with a large or predominant native population. These pockets can be very small indeed due to factors like topography. I mentioned before, my friend has a very good mating apiary at the top of the valley but a few miles further south and his results have become very mixed in the last few seasons. In similar circumstances with mating nucs at the top of a small valley, I abandoned both sites as an allotment society near my drone producers brought in eight hives.
I'd like a VCA in my location.

When I started beekeeping at altitude, 5 years ago, I had 2 neighbour beekeepers within a mile, one who was already established with a couple of Buckfast colonies and the other started same time as me and also bought Buckfast. My dark queen soon turned yellow and did poorly.

Since then both neighbours have started to move to locally adapted / sourced bees and after chatting, one has bought in AMM from a northern supplier of queens. Things have definitely improved for me over last couple of seasons, now I have dark bees again up here (I dispatched my Buckfast crossed queen as just didn’t do well up here and selected from my apiary and best down in the valley). I get a surplus honey crop and one colony in particular does very well despite the weather challenges.

I’ve now started to let my bees mate up here (I used to take down to the valley where there was more choice of drones). The first mating since my poor early experience, was September as a ‘trial’. Haven’t seen her yet but she had laid up 3 frames worker brood beginning October. I can see her offspring are very dark and I think have mated with my neighbours dark AMM / mixed drones. This year my nearest neighbour and I have agreed to add a super comb for drone comb to our best hive. Only time will tell if the variety of genetics is enough to keep colonies strong, or whether I’ll need to source a different dark queen from time to time.

Not an ideal place to keep bees, the wind howling and raining this morning, but I think differently when the spring flow starts in June and heather flow is on in August!

 

[Beesnaturally]

BUT as I can't convince you based on the science I have presented, then why don't you present your own science... IF what you are saying is correct and the bees in question in North Dublin.... are treatment free because of characteristics (genetics) of the bees (with maybe the help of an OMF) then simply take a frame with capped drone brood from a Hive WITH Varroa mites (I would imagine a nuc/hive would be moved to the away apiary that has varroa mites) and place this frame into the hive with these bees that do not need treatment, leave them untreated and in one year we can see who is right... it would be a very simple thing to do, which would add so much strong evidence in support of your argument (and the claim of the author's Paper ... from North Dublin) that it basically would be considered proof that these bees are treatment free because of something to do with the bees.... AT which point there would be a queue down the road for these queens - I would be at the front ... tentatively conceding that I was wrong, and hopefully acknowledge that I was 100% wrong the following year... and at which point you would have a new member of NIHBS and it's most evangelistic supporter!

I'll hold my breathe for the Drone Frame test to be done (by the way if you to Google it, I believe it's called the James Bond method)

First, it wouldn't be science. To qualify as science it would have to done, properly, by a scientist, and properly published. And then it would be just one study, and many people, including people here would say: 'Hey this is just one study, it doesn't prove anything.' Others would say, 'Hey science isn't in the business of proving things'. Etc.

Second, it wouldn't take into account the co-evolution of host and parasite. A large part of what appears to be happening as bees become resistant is the mites have been encouraged to become less fecund. Bees from bee-mite combinations that thrive won't thrive in environments with fast-breeding mites, such as those found in treated environments.

Lastly, John Kefuss- 'bond method' takes its name from the notion ' live and let die'. It's a method of locating resistant individuals by allowing the non-resistant to perish.

 

[Skinfaxi]

First, it wouldn't be science. To qualify as science it would have to done, properly, by a scientists, and properly published. And then it would be just one study, and many people, including people here would say: 'hey this is just one study, it doesn't prove anything.' Others would say, 'hey science isn't in the business of proving things'. Etc.

Second, it wouldn't take into account the co-evolution of host and parasite. A large part of what appears to be happening as bees become resistant is the mites have been encouraged to become less fecund. Bees from bee-mite combinations that thrive won't thrive in environments with fast-breeding mites, such as those found in treated environments.

Lastly, John Kefuss- 'bond method' takes its name from the notion ' live and let die'. It's a method of locating resistant individuals by allowing the non-resistant to perish.

Hello
Imagine all beekers in UK do the bond method. Then what.. do you then put the powers in charge to manage this. How! Who!

 

[rolande]

It's not black and white.
While virgins may mate within subspecies out of preference, the mechanisms honey bees have to avoid inbreeding make the likelihood of this to happen exclusively in a mixed drone environment over a few seasons matings vanishingly small.
Once you have introgression it would be extremely difficult to reverse the process, how is a virgin expected to let a 100% amm drone mount her but identify and dismiss the next drone who happens to have a buckfast forebear and is only 75% Amm?
Your arguments for native bee keepers not to be concerned over foreign bee pollution at their mating sites are based on only best possible outcomes occurring time after time after time.

As usual I agree pretty much with everything from mbc although I'd question whether the virgin has much control at all over which drones catch her. I'd be inclined to shift the emphasis back onto drone fitness which of course is a massive subject. There's also flight time and height preferences of different subspecies, not something I know much about but there was research on both mechanisms I believe, I think Gillles Fert touched on the time preference (if not height) in his original (all too slim) queen rearing book.

None of this is meant to contradict what mbc wrote; I'm just adding some thoughts to the subject. The core issue of whether it's a good thing to maintain the inherent variation found in the different subspecies should be a simple one to work out.

 

[Swarm]

That’s fair enough - so far it’s all been good natured and healthy debate.
I was just reading about the Lleyn and Eifionydd association. 500 hives Treatment free. That’s fantastic.
I would also like a VCA where I live. Currently working on it

I don't know if you've seen any of Laurence's latest on youtube? I caught one he did in an abandoned apiary and he did follow up progress videos since. A nucleus found with no roof where the bees made their own from propolis. Not sure of the location but it's in north Wales somewhere, very nice native bees and good brood patterns.

 

[Apiarist]

While virgins may mate within subspecies out of preference,

Do you have research that I'm not aware about this? The research that I've read to date, and what we have been discussing, is only AMM virgins mating with only AMM drones, not virgins generally mating within their own subspecies, in fact the existence of the Buckfast bee proves that (probably) most of the other Apis mellifera mate freely with each other.

the mechanisms honey bees have to avoid inbreeding make the likelihood of this to happen exclusively in a mixed drone environment over a few seasons matings vanishingly small.

I'm not sure what this sentence means in the context of the discussion, and the findings of the research, ie: what mechanisms?

Once you have introgression it would be extremely difficult to reverse the process,

yes, you're right...
....unless you agree with the thinking that I found eloquently and convincingly put forth by Beowolf Cooper; in that IF the Amm is the best suited bee to the British Isles then it's genetics are as well, and over time these genetics will come to the forefront. But yes, I think you are right once introgression occurred it would be difficult to reverse; it's just how does it occur, because the research is very strongly indicating that the Amm virgins are not mating with non-Amm drones... which I do not understand.

how is a virgin expected to let a 100% amm drone mount her but identify and dismiss the next drone who happens to have a buckfast forebear and is only 75% Amm?

I have no idea, I was hoping someone here could make suggestions.... but one of the authors verbally explained what he observed in that from what I gathered even hives that were giving DNA results of about 88%+ Amm, their Drones were not mating with the Amm virgins! I am completely perplexed, and I am saying (like you) this cannot be right, ... but the research is quite clear.

Your arguments for native bee keepers not to be concerned over foreign bee pollution at their mating sites are based on only best possible outcomes occurring time after time after time.

Maybe... not "best possible outcomes" - I'm basing my present (they may change) opinions on likely mating outcomes on the conclusions of the research.

 

[Wilco]

Of course one way to test this would be to use an isolated mating site and provide roughly equal numbers of drones from different AMM types. Then release a few virgin AMM queens there and check the genetics of who they mate with. If they predominantly wind up with AMM semen then there's a strong case for some form of selection going on. If there is an even distribution it would suggest that previous studies could be explained by higher proportions of AMM drones being present than expected (such as if there is a higher number of wild/feral colonies than expected).

 

[Swarm]

On a brighter note, talking earlier about our yellow line, these are from one we raised last year.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5b8b649n817sq7g/farm bees.mp4?dl=0

 

[Lislarybees]

When I started beekeeping at altitude, 5 years ago, I had 2 neighbour beekeepers within a mile, one who was already established with a couple of Buckfast colonies and the other started same time as me and also bought Buckfast. My dark queen soon turned yellow and did poorly.

Since then both neighbours have started to move to locally adapted / sourced bees and after chatting, one has bought in AMM from a northern supplier of queens. Things have definitely improved for me over last couple of seasons, now I have dark bees again up here (I dispatched my Buckfast crossed queen as just didn’t do well up here and selected from my apiary and best down in the valley). I get a surplus honey crop and one colony in particular does very well despite the weather challenges.

I’ve now started to let my bees mate up here (I used to take down to the valley where there was more choice of drones). The first mating since my poor early experience, was September as a ‘trial’. Haven’t seen her yet but she had laid up 3 frames worker brood beginning October. I can see her offspring are very dark and I think have mated with my neighbours dark AMM / mixed drones. This year my nearest neighbour and I have agreed to add a super comb for drone comb to our best hive. Only time will tell if the variety of genetics is enough to keep colonies strong, or whether I’ll need to source a different dark queen from time to time.

Not an ideal place to keep bees, the wind howling and raining this morning, but I think differently when the spring flow starts in June and heather flow is on in August!

Great you have neighbours that you can work with towards a common goal!

 

[Lislarybees]

I don't know if you've seen any of Laurence's latest on youtube? I caught one he did in an abandoned apiary and he did follow up progress videos since. A nucleus found with no roof where the bees made their own from propolis. Not sure of the location but it's in north Wales somewhere, very nice native bees and good brood patterns.

I watched both these videos - fascinating. A colony building it's own roof shows some resilience!

 

[Lislarybees]

Do you have research that I'm not aware about this? The research that I've read to date, and what we have been discussing, is only AMM virgins mating with only AMM drones, not virgins generally mating within their own subspecies, in fact the existence of the Buckfast bee proves that (probably) most of the other Apis mellifera mate freely with each other.


I'm not sure what this sentence means in the context of the discussion, and the findings of the research, ie: what mechanisms?


yes, you're right...
....unless you agree with the thinking that I found eloquently and convincingly put forth by Beowolf Cooper; in that IF the Amm is the best suited bee to the British Isles then it's genetics are as well, and over time these genetics will come to the forefront. But yes, I think you are right once introgression occurred it would be difficult to reverse; it's just how does it occur, because the research is very strongly indicating that the Amm virgins are not mating with non-Amm drones... which I do not understand.


I have no idea, I was hoping someone here could make suggestions.... but one of the authors verbally explained what he observed in that from what I gathered even hives that were giving DNA results of about 88%+ Amm, their Drones were not mating with the Amm virgins! I am completely perplexed, and I am saying (like you) this cannot be right, ... but the research is quite clear.


Maybe... not "best possible outcomes" - I'm basing my present (they may change) opinions on likely mating outcomes on the conclusions of the research.

Im going to stop you there Apiarist. We are going around in circles. Once again - this is one study and it showed that in this specific instance there was a very low level of introgression. That doesn't suddenly make it some universal law of biology. I am pretty sure everyone on this forum can give examples of seeing hybridisation in their bees or the colonies of beekeepers they know. Sadly the mechanism observed in this study is inconsistent - is it interesting and worthy of further study absolutely.

 

[Apiarist]

Of course one way to test this would be to use an isolated mating site and provide roughly equal numbers of drones from different AMM types. Then release a few virgin AMM queens there and check the genetics of who they mate with. If they predominantly wind up with AMM semen then there's a strong case for some form of selection going on. If there is an even distribution it would suggest that previous studies could be explained by higher proportions of AMM drones being present than expected (such as if there is a higher number of wild/feral colonies than expected).

Hi
you mean different Apis mellifera types (subspecies) don't you, say 50% A m carnica and 50% A m mellifera?

That could prove to be very difficult, you would have to make sure the carnica which build up earlier (according to Ruttner) do not have more Drones in their hives, also there's always the question of where did the virgins fly to, ...someone may say that amm virgins performed Near Apiary Vicinity mating ... and other such things.

The idea had crossed my mind as well, even with the possible counter arguments the results of the experiment would add the findings of a third study, with this suggested Isolated Mating Study, I think being the most valuable.


BUT
would a more extreme version not be better.
IF we took, say 10 Amm virgins and released them on an island (isolated mating station) with NO Amm drones, say carnica drones only, and also released carnica virgins (just to prove that the island provided the necessary mating conditions, such as weather, etc.), we could provide strong evidence as to whether Amm virgins mate with non-Amm or not. I think that might actually be do-able, do you think this would be a good idea?

 

[Apiarist]

Im going to stop you there Apiarist.

err, I was replying to the good points mbc was making... and it's not 1, it's 2 (and counting), not mentioning the anecdotal evidence supplied by the Amm beekeepers from Isle of Læsø.