Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Your orange bees are bred for high productivity. Are your darker bees so bred?
This seems to be an expensive racehorse/free pony comparison.

My black bees ( swarms excluded )have not been free

 

[Beesnaturally]

So do you advocate for Amm or for the clearly hybridised “local landraces”? (like the phrase by the way).

I'm glad you like the characterisation, thank you. (Its borrowed from the veg seed folk who keep thousands of unique Grandpas' veg genes going)

Lets see what happens: bees living freely are adapted from we-don't know where - presumably the pre-varroa free-living population and weak kept bees, in varying proportion.
As time goes by, and the more the free-living bees can outnumber, or otherwise separate themselves from kept bees, the alleles that are not helpful to the local, UK/North-South-East-West-height specifications are lost; and those alleles that are helpful at each locality rise in the free-living population (and in any kept hives exposed to them).

So the degree of hybridisation is different, according to place, time, numbers and so on. And the characteristic of such free-living populations slowly becomes more uniform in the individual colonies. If isolated they would over time become more and more uniform - but local conditions would maintain differences at the local level.

The reproductive biology of bees with queens mating numerous drones makes selective bee breeding both puzzling and complex, even experts can have trouble interpreting and understanding how the selection of bees with preferred characteristics in one generation leads to improved progeny in the next.

Anyone familiar with the very basics of Darwinism can tell you that. The weak (less well-fitted to the present environment) individuals reproduce at lower rates than the stronger (better fitted). Bang: in a few generations the rubbish has been largely cleared out, and the great stuff is making great bees.

You said "In general terms the idea that bred foreign queens from anywhere might be a good plan is something that only really makes sense to sellers of queens (and nucs made with them) and commercial highly managed (and highly damaging) commercial outfits."
Where I live getting hold of almost any stock involves importation. The Irish Amm I have imported do very well here, but then you might argue that they are 'local' since NI is less than 25 miles away. Similarly I have some Scottish stock that come from a lot further away, they also do very well in this marginal area as do the very local ( well 10 miles away) mongrels. All are pretty and black.

Have you tried asking BIBBA for help? Is there no-one near you keeping 'farm' bees? Have you tried trapping in likely places?
But yes: its recognised - and explicitly dealt with in the video - those with good self-sufficient stock must try to help people like yourself more. (That includes me, and I will when I'm ready)

 

[Erichalfbee]

It’s my observation that the campaigns are extremely one-sided in terms of visibility and force.

Depends where you look

 

[Beesnaturally]

To what?
I was simply answering mr Fian’s question.

Fair enough: there are grounds there for greater clarity and further discussion, but I've made my point and there are other things to do...

 

[Beesnaturally]

Depends where you look

Sure does! I've looked at forums quite extensively over the past 20 years and maybe more! It is nice to see academia and Defra slowly gravitating toward the position I and a few other have tried to advocate all that time.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sure does! I've looked at forums quite extensively over the past 20 years and maybe more! It is nice to see academia and Defra slowly gravitating toward the position I and a few other have tried to advocate all that time.

Well this is swarm’s blog and it’s about black bees so I’ll leave it there safe to say thank heavens we are allowed to keep whatever bees we want.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Its my observation that the campaigns are extremely one-sided in terms of visibility and force.

Ah yes. Of course I misunderstood you. One side campaigns. The other defends its position. So you are correct.

 

[fian]

1.Not a simple reply. The queens I Demaree are kept regardless of colour until their production drops off. Her colony may be demareed again the following year or more usually just AS'd. As'd colonies are usually recombined after swarming.I have 9 colonies. I generally replace two or three queens a season
2. No I am a hobby keeper.I'm not into beekeeping taking over my life. I self indulge. I have a Sublimox which cost a packet and various bits of kit which really aren't commensurate with my turnover.
3. I don't monitor. Even the Amm is replaced regularly. I usually have a swarm into a bait hive of tiny black defensive bees. They must come from the same place as they are always the same. Husband likes to play with them.
4. Yes.Not all my purchased Buckfast are orange

1. How do you estimate that production has decreased? Would you expect 2 raises and you only get one that year, so would you proceed with your replacement in September or April of the following year?
2. Are the replacements made locally?
3. How small are those tiny blacks?

 

[fian]

No, I didn't say that. I think some people are pushing the idea that some 'buckfast' breeders are including VHS genes in their mix, and that that would constitute a good reason to use them. Which is, imho, horse****


They may produce more honey (under managed conditions) than average local strains (usually struggling under the burden of non-resistant genes from treaded hives). I don't know. What I do know is that keeping bees that need treating sickens local free living bees - all over; and that local varroa-resistant strains offer a host of advantages both to beekeepers and to local ecologies.

In general terms the idea that bred foreign queens from anywhere might be a good plan is something that only really makes sense to sellers of queens (and nucs made with them) and commercial highly managed (and highly damaging) commercial outfits.

I don't agree, how would you expect to improve your amm without falling into genetic inbreeding.
If there is something that brother adam has done beyond creating a hybrid, it is a procedure for the improvement of a bee, be it amm or another race.

 

[Erichalfbee]

1. How do you estimate that production has decreased? Would you expect 2 raises and you only get one that year, so would you proceed with your replacement in September or April of the following year?
2. Are the replacements made locally?
3. How small are those tiny blacks?

You know Monty Python have a sketch about the Spanish Inquisition

 

[JamezF]

You know Monty Python have a sketch about the Spanish Inquisition

Well I never expected that.

James

 

[Newbeeneil]

Well I never expected that.

James

No one expects it!

 

[fian]

You know Monty Python have a sketch about the Spanish Inquisition

I didn't know him.
Still, the only way we have to learn and know is to ask. I will tell you the purpose of each question.
1. Generally, only the absolute records in the same year are taken into account, but when you mention "production decreases" it is that you have established a precedent that allows the outcome.
2. If you do it locally and not from a foreign import, some criticism from a user would lack practical value.
3. Does the size of the bees influence their resistance to varroa, in the sense that it is the only defense weapon of the wild colonies? Is therefore a "tiny black" a surviving local ecotype?

 

[Beesnaturally]

I don't agree, how would you expect to improve your amm without falling into genetic inbreeding.
If there is something that brother adam has done beyond creating a hybrid, it is a procedure for the improvement of a bee, be it amm or another race.

Open mating inland carries little to no risk of inbreeding. If you had hundreds of hives and you were silly enough to requeen the lot from a single mother or something like that you might achieve it. But nobody with that capability is that daft.

People have been improving crops and livestock for 10,000 years. You need to learn about genetic husbandry.

 

[pevanstone]

I hope you mean the
There's plenty more in the menu

A cheerful lot,but the chap pulling his hair out did sober me up,l hope not a sign of things to come.A massive surge of people buying Christmas presents in glass jars.l hope the new year goes well for you and your massive family.

 

[fian]

Open mating inland carries little to no risk of inbreeding. If you had hundreds of hives and you were silly enough to requeen the lot from a single mother or something like that you might achieve it. But nobody with that capability is that daft.

People have been improving crops and livestock for 10,000 years. You need to learn about genetic husbandry.

But we had not agreed that in the uk there were few or no wild swarms of amm and that is why beekeeping is promoted in amm to preserve the breed. Regarding the reproduction of the queen, she usually travels to the second area of congregation of drones closest to her hive, in the first the drones of her apiary would be found in greater proportion. The problem is in the numbers to stabilize a drone congregation area (DCA) you need 10,000 drones that are not your own but those of your neighbor around 5 km away. If there is no dca in that area, the queens will reproduce with drones from your apiary. As you have said, a stronger hive gives more drones and unfortunately beekeepers tend to replicate the queens of strong colonies (risk of consanguinity).

 

[Beesnaturally]

But we had not agreed that in the uk there were few or no wild swarms of amm and that is why beekeeping is promoted in amm to preserve the breed.

This is how I see things.

Amm is a race, not a breed. Like all races it contains terrific genetic diversity. Some genes and alleles are shared by all honeybees (the species) a very small proportion are rearranged and observed as different subspecies, or races. Occasionally a mutation, or loss of genetic material will create a unique characteristic within a subspecies.

The vast proportion of what creates a different bee, a subspecies, race, breed or local variant, is multi-generational environmental conditioning. As that happens, each unique environment goes to work on the available material to produce a population that is unique. In Northern Europe the product is known as the variety of Amm.

That's the first part.

Now look at how all this variety (within ie Amm) is connected by geographic proximity. Genes and gene-packages (alleles) are constantly being swapped with neighbours - but not (in the natural state) with more distant ones.

So variations change gradually over distance. Geographic obstructions, high mountain ranges and sea separation allow relatively close populations to become marked different. But otherwise we are largely talking about gradual change with distance in all directions, with each 'local population' being shaped by it's local environment; and, importantly, most genetic material held by all populations - just merely unused, unless needed.

This is the picture we need to have in mind when we talk about hybrids, and about local 'survivor' populations. Such populations are being constantly conditioned by their environments, and the process of natural selection for the fittest strains is diminishing the presence in them of less-useful (here, now) genes and gene-packages, and increasing the presence of genes-that-work-well here.
They are being shaped into bees that belong here. And early reports are that those packages contain critical Amm features.

So, left alone (no imports, minimal clumsy beekeeping) Amm is returning. Partly as a spread of the injection of surviving Amm genes from Amm-rich populations, partly from such genes that never went away; all being appropriately sorted and winnowed by natural selection.

Regarding the reproduction of the queen, she usually travels to the second area of congregation of drones closest to her hive, in the first the drones of her apiary would be found in greater proportion. The problem is in the numbers to stabilize a drone congregation area (DCA) you need 10,000 drones that are not your own but those of your neighbor around 5 km away. If there is no dca in that area, the queens will reproduce with drones from your apiary. As you have said, a stronger hive gives more drones and unfortunately beekeepers tend to replicate the queens of strong colonies (risk of consanguinity).

This is all minutae that you don't need to know (and I suspect you don't understand as well as you think you do).

Think of it like this:
You know you need to keep putting petrol in your car if you want it to keep going. You don't need to know all the tiny ins and outs of why that works.

Stop importing, stop treating: local Amm populations will return. That an option. That's all you need to know.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Stop importing, stop treating: local Amm populations will return. That an option. That's all you need to know.

What effect would that have on our honey industry?

 

[Beesnaturally]

What effect would that have on our honey industry?

Which is more important, our ecology or our honey industry? At what point does damage to the former outweigh damage to the latter? Isn't that the major topic of our time?

Ok, that was just food for thought: now the response: what evidence is there that bred-up Amms are significantly less productive than the bees currently used? By how much.

Obviously I'm looking for scientific answers, not opinions from those with skin in the game.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ok I’m skinless but presuming Amm can produce the goods how long without a honey industry are we talking about?
What makes one race of bee more important than another?