Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[fian]

This is how I see things.

Amm is a race, not a breed. Like all races it contains terrific genetic diversity. Some genes and alleles are shared by all honeybees (the species) a very small proportion are rearranged and observed as different subspecies, or races. Occasionally a mutation, or loss of genetic material will create a unique characteristic within a subspecies.

The vast proportion of what creates a different bee, a subspecies, race, breed or local variant, is multi-generational environmental conditioning. As that happens, each unique environment goes to work on the available material to produce a population that is unique. In Northern Europe the product is known as the variety of Amm.

That's the first part.

Now look at how all this variety (within ie Amm) is connected by geographic proximity. Genes and gene-packages (alleles) are constantly being swapped with neighbours - but not (in the natural state) with more distant ones.

So variations change gradually over distance. Geographic obstructions, high mountain ranges and sea separation allow relatively close populations to become marked different. But otherwise we are largely talking about gradual change with distance in all directions, with each 'local population' being shaped by it's local environment; and, importantly, most genetic material held by all populations - just merely unused, unless needed.

This is the picture we need to have in mind when we talk about hybrids, and about local 'survivor' populations. Such populations are being constantly conditioned by their environments, and the process of natural selection for the fittest strains is diminishing the presence in them of less-useful (here, now) genes and gene-packages, and increasing the presence of genes-that-work-well here.
They are being shaped into bees that belong here. And early reports are that those packages contain critical Amm features.

So, left alone (no imports, minimal clumsy beekeeping) Amm is returning. Partly as a spread of the injection of surviving Amm genes from Amm-rich populations, partly from such genes that never went away; all being appropriately sorted and winnowed by natural selection.





This is all minutae that you don't need to know (and I suspect you don't understand as well as you think you do).

Think of it like this:
You know you need to keep putting petrol in your car if you want it to keep going. You don't need to know all the tiny ins and outs of why that works.

Stop importing, stop treating: local Amm populations will return. That an option. That's all you need to know.

Remember that species that do not adapt go into historical memory. Do not wander about the amm, are there or are not enough wild populations for the continuity of the race? If there are, then human actions such as importing, treating will hardly have an impact on those colonies. If there isn't, it would make sense to have some restriction and some selection to improve the race and make it useful to humanity, since that would guarantee its continuity.
By the way and regarding the example of my car, my mechanic if he needs to know the details.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Ok I’m skinless but presuming Amm can produce the goods how long without a honey industry are we talking about?

No time without a honey industry, and very little to no loss at all if its done well. But its never something they'll do without being forced to. Present practice is more efficient. Perhaps though if queens with a higher Amm content, bred toward resistance and productivity were on offer some might take them up. I can't easily see a return to in-house free-living bee-aware practices being widely adopted. Its not seen as desirable. Local ecologies make up the cost.

What makes one race of bee more important than another?

The easy answer is that they are suited to local conditions. But its more complex than that, as I'd hoped my earlier post indicated.

More widely: honeybees are part of our ecology. To continually suppress them is to reduce and impoverish OUR biodiversity and biomass. Fewer bees; fewer seed, less replacement growth, fewer seed-eating species. This is low on the food chain and affects everything higher, now and into the future.

And then: a vigorous bee population that is subjected to continuous natural selection holds the healthiest possible gene-set. That benefits beekeepers (who let it in). Its not something breeders can match.

I think those are my main answers. But I will add: in this day and age... activities that reduce the richness and opportunity of future generations are frowned upon. Industries that dump harmful waste into rivers and oceans, into soil and drinking water, into the atmosphere... are being called to account.

Its past time to do the same for the beekeeping industry - which has been riding on the big fat fib-narrative of saving the world by saving the bees for the past 3 decades. Its time to call that out for the bs it is. Its time the truth about beekeeping was out in the open. Then beekeepers and would-be beekeepers can make choices upon the facts, not upon the sales talk and propaganda.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Remember that species that do not adapt go into historical memory.

Sure. But most are either out-competed by others species, or simply evolove into new species (which out-compete the old)

Do not wander about the amm, are there or are not enough wild populations for the continuity of the race?

Pardon?

If there are, then human actions such as importing, treating will hardly have an impact on those colonies. If there isn't, it would make sense to have some restriction and some selection to improve the race and make it useful to humanity, since that would guarantee its continuity.

It does have an impact. Most people understand that.

By the way and regarding the example of my car, my mechanic if he needs to know the details.

Think of me as your bee-population dynamic mechanic then. And don't try to fiddle with things you don't understand, or don't understand how, and why they are, or are not, important in the greater scheme of things. It will backfire.

 

[Erichalfbee]

No time without a honey industry, and very little to no loss at all if its done well.

And how is that?
Compulsion?

 

[fian]

Sure. But most are either out-competed by others species, or simply evolove into new species (which out-compete the old)

Pardon?

It does have an impact. Most people understand that.

Think of me as your bee-population dynamic mechanic then. And don't try to fiddle with things you don't understand, or don't understand how, and why they are, or are not, important in the greater scheme of things. It will backfire.

You can hardly see him as a mechanic. At the risk of being wrong and based on your comments, here is a list of arguments:
1. Discard the enhancement procedure, see post about brother Adam.
2. It discards the human capacity to select improvement criteria.
3. Discard the reproductive nature of the bee, see post on reproduction.
4. The current situation of the wild swarms is irrelevant to him.
5. Promotes an irresponsible attitude based on maintaining "do nothing, let nature solve the problem"

 

[Beesnaturally]

You can hardly see him as a mechanic. At the risk of being wrong and based on your comments, here is a list of arguments:
1. Discard the enhancement procedure, see post about brother Adam.
2. It discards the human capacity to select improvement criteria.
3. Discard the reproductive nature of the bee, see post on reproduction.
4. The current situation of the wild swarms is irrelevant to him.
5. Promotes an irresponsible attitude based on maintaining "do nothing, let nature solve the problem"

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I'm suggesting two things:

1) Arrange for free-living bees to exist and thrive, as free as possible from human interference.
That is: allow natural selection to bring the most vigorous, well-suited genes to each environment to the fore.
Result: populations of bees that don't need treating or mollycoddling in order to be fabulously fit and healthy.
Yes, its 'hands off'. But its hands off in both directions: we don't help them, but we take care not to hinder them.

2) From those bees 'breed up' maximally productive apiary strains. This can be done with open mating of queens (skilfully) selected from the best hives. Nothing more is needed.

Now the apiary bees won't feed weak, badly-fitted genes back into the free-living populations.

And so both beekeepers bees and free-living bees will be doing exactly what we want of them: staying healthy, producing lots of honey, maximally supporting local ecologies.

Its that simple.

 

[Beesnaturally]

And how is that?
Compulsion?

That's what regulations are for. To press commercial actors toward socially beneficial actions, and away from socially harmful actions.

Incentives and encouragements can be deployed, compulsion as a last resort.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That's what regulations are for. To press commercial actors toward socially beneficial actions, and away from socially harmful actions.

Incentives and encouragements can be deployed, compulsion as a last resort.

Socially harmful?
Well I can see all you are interested in is your Amm project. Hobby keepers like Swarm love their bees and it’s obvious he is passionate about them
and the results he’s getting and they are well deserved.
I take comfort from the fact that your idea of regulating the commercial sector will never happen. Each to his own. I’ve said it before. Thank heavens we are allowed to keep what we want.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Socially harmful?
Well I can see all you are interested in is your Amm project. Hobby keepers like Swarm love their bees and it’s obvious he is passionate about them
and the results he’s getting and they are well deserved.
I take comfort from the fact that your idea of regulating the commercial sector will never happen. Each to his own. I’ve said it before. Thank heavens we are allowed to keep what we want.

Seat belts. Cheap cigarettes. DDT. Need I go on?

 

[fian]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I'm suggesting two things:

1) Arrange for free-living bees to exist and thrive, as free as possible from human interference.
That is: allow natural selection to bring the most vigorous, well-suited genes to each environment to the fore.
Result: populations of bees that don't need treating or mollycoddling in order to be fabulously fit and healthy.
Yes, its 'hands off'. But its hands off in both directions: we don't help them, but we take care not to hinder them.

2) From those bees 'breed up' maximally productive apiary strains. This can be done with open mating of queens (skilfully) selected from the best hives. Nothing more is needed.

Now the apiary bees won't feed weak, badly-fitted genes back into the free-living populations.

And so both beekeepers bees and free-living bees will be doing exactly what we want of them: staying healthy, producing lots of honey, maximally supporting local ecologies.

Its that simple.

It's 30 years late at best. The population of free swarms has been reduced to a minimum due to the incidence of varroa.
I don't know about British legislation but in Spain there are numerous preserved habitats where wild populations can develop without interference. Additionally, in these areas only organic beekeeping is allowed, that is, free of chemicals.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Think of me as your bee-population dynamic mechanic then.

and what qualification do you have for suddenly deciding you are an expert?

 

[Swarm]

Sadly, such spaces are becoming fewer, which is why VCA are so valuable. Extending these areas where no bees are introduced would be one useful direction towards stabilising established populations. We are already seeing great results in one such area in Wales.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Seat belts. Cheap cigarettes. DDT. Need I go on?

I wasn’t aware that non Amm bees were that lethal.

 

[fian]

Sadly, such spaces are becoming fewer, which is why VCA are so valuable. Extending these areas where no bees are introduced would be one useful direction towards stabilising established populations. We are already seeing great results in one such area in Wales.

They are not incompatible. You can have natural protection areas with restrictions to preserve natural swarms and conventional beekeeping areas without restriction.
But beenaturally's proposal is a general restriction of the whole territory

 

[Beesnaturally]

and what qualification do you have for suddenly deciding you are an expert?

30 years deep interest and study, a fair bit of correspondence with top experts in the field, a good university degree (meaning I know how to study and reach conclusions), but mostly a clear understanding of the key principle of Darwinism. When varroa first arrived and I was told everyone would be treating in perpetuity, that alone enabled me to know exactly what that would mean. Everything I've learned since has confirmed that. I've studied, written and talked with beekeepers on all sides for over 20 years, amounting to probably over 5000 hours. I've collected survivors (and non-survivors) and run a live and let die experiment with up to 100 hives for 12 years now. I know what the results are.

And I know whenever I read or watch experts - by which I mean scientists who have worked in the field of honeybees - speak of the connections I draw, I am always in complete agreement.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You think you do - but as with most of what you say - all centred aroud your obsession with 'Darwinism' and precious little else.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I wasn’t aware that non Amm bees were that lethal.

Sigh. You have a golden retriever breeding outfit. Someone starts secretly impregnating your females with bulldogs.

Will the offspring win prizes in the golden retriever classes?

You have a happy life as a free living population managing its own varroa, and being well attuned to the local climate and forage. Someone starts secretly impregnating your females with drones rom colonies that have none of those qualities.

Will the offspring be able to manage varroa and utilise the climatic and foraging conditions?

If they can't manage varroa what will happen to them?

 

[Beesnaturally]

You think you do - but as with most of what you say - all centred aroud your obsession with 'Darwinism' and precious little else.

It funny how giving a straight answer to a straight question from you always results in an explosion of ad hominem. Its almost like you deliberately set me up just so you can be rude and dismissive. Which is why I generally don't bother.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

f they can't manage varroa what will happen to them?

my dogs never had varroa, but if they had fleas I would do what any responsible owner would do and treat them - not just sit on my backside and see if they would treat themselves

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sigh. You have a golden retriever breeding outfit. Someone starts secretly impregnating your females with bulldogs.

Will the offspring win prizes in the golden retriever classes?

You have a happy life as a free living population managing its own varroa, and being well attuned to the local climate and forage. Someone starts secretly impregnating your females with drones rom colonies that have none of those qualities.

Will the offspring be able to manage varroa and utilise the climatic and foraging conditions?

If they can't manage varroa what will happen to them?

Your analogies are wrong. The one thing you don’t seem to grasp is that none of this matters.

As for not managing varroa well then your bees will take over the world