Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[ericbeaumont]

the subject of this blog which is sustainable beekeeping, working with our native bees.

The idea of transforming the UK into an Amm TF zone must either remain an esoteric backwater of principle and wishful thinking, or make ripples of useful change by engaging with and winning over those elements of beekeeping which would oppose such revolution: the commercial supply of bees, the commercial producers of honey, and the teaching of beekeeping. Get those on board and the ship may turn (eventually).

The vested interests of the first two make progress unlikely, and the ramparts of the BBKA would have to be blasted apart (not a bad idea, anyway) for it to abandon rote teaching. I do like the passion & principle of BN's plan to keep bees in a better way, but unless we vote for a dictatorship...

 

[fian]

Accepting that in this post the conversation about the amm has been diverted and the discussion about nature and legislation is interesting, I will open a new post to continue dealing with the diverted topic, leaving the original post for the topics covered in it (the beekeeping experience with um)
I would appreciate a moderator for the link for those who want to continue on the deviant topic.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Which bit do you want linked?

 

[fian]

Which bit do you want linked?

Sorry I was creating the post Nature, Legislation and Angels.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I do like the passion & principle of BN's plan to keep bees in a better way

is it a better way though? in whose opinion?

 

[fian]

is it a better way though? in whose opinion?

Better in the new post.
Are there natural areas in the UK where wildlife is protected?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Better in the new post.
Are there natural areas in the UK where wildlife is protected?

Across the U.K. lots of wildlife is protected
You could start here
https://www.wildlifetrusts.org/uk-wildlife-law

 

[user 20297]

Better in the new post.
Are there natural areas in the UK where wildlife is protected?

As far as I know, the only part of the UK where legislation applies that protects "native" honey bees is the island of Colonsay which is a 36 mile journey by ferry from the west coast of the Scottish mainland. The protected bees aren't pure Amm,. nor are they actually native to the island. The island is not a particularly favourable environment for bees or beekeeping and one beekeeper has the monopoly of the bees. There are historical reasons why this unusual situation has developed, but it seems unlikely that anything similar could be done anywhere in the UK where there are multiple beekeepers already.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/native-black-bee-reserve-be-created-colonsay-1549632
Hasta donde yo sé, la única parte del Reino Unido donde se aplica la legislación que protege a las abejas melíferas "nativas" es la isla de Colonsay, que está a 36 millas de viaje en ferry desde la costa oeste del continente escocés. Las abejas protegidas no son puras Amm,. ni son en realidad nativos de la isla. La isla no es un ambiente particularmente favorable para las abejas o la apicultura y un apicultor tiene el monopolio de las abejas. Hay razones históricas por las que se ha desarrollado esta situación inusual, pero parece poco probable que se pueda hacer algo similar en cualquier lugar del Reino Unido donde ya hay varios apicultores.

 

[Lislarybees]

That’s not what I said.
What doesn’t matter is your obsession with turning the U.K. into an Amm TF zone.

I don’t understand why as a beekeeper you would not want the UK to be an AMM treatment free zone? This is what it should be, what it was for thousands of years before in a very short period of time it was mucked up by individuals looking to make a fast buck. It is not too late to go back.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don’t understand why as a beekeeper you would not want the UK to be an AMM treatment free zone? This is what it should be, what it was for thousands of years before in a very short period of time it was mucked up by individuals looking to make a fast buck. It is not too late to go back.

Why do you need to understand? Why should it be?
Why direct your evangelism at the U.K. in particular

 

[Swarm]

Another season begins, the colonies are all flying even in the cold wind today. Lot's to look forward to with a quiet, new site for mating nucs that should more than make up for the one we abandoned last year. Hopefully a lot more queens this year with more beekeepers joining our native bee group.
The farm apiary has had a major overhaul, I hardly recognise the place. I need to move four hives to replace one of the old stands that is starting to show its age, I have two lengths of 6" x 3" set aside ready for that.
Currently there are six over wintered colonies that will be due for sale shortly, they are all busy and flying well piling pollen in. I have three more already promised to a friend so I'll be able to rearrange the apiary a bit before the fun starts.

 

[fian]

Today I learned of a slightly controversial initiative.
Since 2017, the South Korean company LG has started Smart Green Bees, a corporate image project that consists of promoting the installation of "apis mellifera iberensis" apiaries throughout the peninsular geography. They plan to install 47 million bees, around three thousand hives, considering an average of 15,000 bees per hive.
Do you think the project is successful?

 

[user 6228]

On the subject of how amm is adapted you might like to look at this:
1. Mitchell DM. 2022 Honey bee (Apis mellifera) size determines colony heat transfer when brood covering or distributed. Int. J. Biometeorol. 66, 1653–1663. (doi:10.1007/s00484-022-02308-z)

individual size is much more significant in the nest than out side because the air resistance in the hive goes up as the 3rd power of honey bee size where as heat loss as an individual outside the nest is reduced linearly.

 

[fian]

On the subject of how amm is adapted you might like to look at this:
1. Mitchell DM. 2022 Honey bee (Apis mellifera) size determines colony heat transfer when brood covering or distributed. Int. J. Biometeorol. 66, 1653–1663. (doi:10.1007/s00484-022-02308-z)

individual size is much more significant in the nest than out side because the air resistance in the hive goes up as the 3rd power of honey bee size where as heat loss as an individual outside the nest is reduced linearly.

So a smaller bee has less heat loss?

 

[user 6228]

So a smaller bee has less heat loss?

larger bee has smaller area per unit volume. less heat loss per unit of heat generation.

 

[Wilco]

So a smaller bee has less heat loss?

Another way to phrase it would be:

As bee size increases, air resistance in the hive increases in line with the third power of bee size. Also as bee size increases, heat loss when outside the hive reduces (i.e. Inverse relationship) linearly.

From this, presumably air resistance is an important factor inside the hive.

 

[rolande]

From this, presumably air resistance is an important factor inside the hive.

But in what sense? Bees from all kinds of different subspecies seem to thrive in the British Isles, some even winter in much smaller clusters than others in the same size hive. I really can't get my head around why this is remotely important to the bees.

 

[Swarm]

I've been going back through old apiary notes ready for a presentation, it was quite interesting.
2006 was a decent summer, followed by five miserable, wet years with average crops except 2011, when the supers were piled high. I noted that honey supers were still on the hives late into September, in 2009 was Sept 18th and lots of Balsam coming in. A bypass road and subsequent development took out most of it and harvesting has moved forward by a month or more since then.
2012 and 2013 two consecutively bad years, with an extended period of cold that meant first inspection of 2013 was in May.
2015 was a great Hawthorn year, gorgeous honey. Better weather in 2016 and 2017 and then the summer of 2018 after the beast from the east in spring. Then we had last year. Long may it continue, I can remember a few beekeepers who quit during those wet seasons, fed up with beekeeping in the rain.

I noticed that banded workers first appeared in my home apiary in 2008, the photo below shows the queen and colony in May 2009. Her daughter was a light queen and the bees turned miserable, moved to out apiary later that year. Killed the queen and raised two daughters like chalk and cheese, both light queens again. I killed the grumpy one and united, the other colony I gave to a local farmer who wanted bees.
Meanwhile at the farm apiary, the results were reliable. I had a mother and daughter in 2010 who were both like treacle factories and I remember them well, sticky inspections but a gorgeous smell and the gentlest black bees.

I decided to close the garden apiary so in December 2011, I moved the hives from the garden, two went to the farm and three to another site in a private garden. Two years later, I removed the bees from this garden site as it was very exposed after the landowner cut down a hedge.

Queen rearing results showed two distinct peaks, in 2019 and 2021, both years produced stunningly dark queens. Alongside queens raised at the farm are the daughters and granddaughters of the Amm queens from various apiaries within our native bee group. It's too early to assess the ones from last year but they were all flying well in the sun yesterday.
I'm certainly looking forward to this year.

 

[madasafish]

I've heard "local bees are best " several thousand times.
My local bees are dark, aggressive and horrible.

You can tell when people are honest with you: they are open with their successes and failures. I am open with my honey yields per hive locally (and on here - c 55lbs) And my hive losses. No one locally with local bees ventures any figures. So my conclusions are: they are so much better than mine they don't want to show me up as an incompetent... OR.. ,,

As humans love to boast, I draw my own conclusions..

 

[user 6228]

But in what sense? Bees from all kinds of different subspecies seem to thrive in the British Isles, some even winter in much smaller clusters than others in the same size hive. I really can't get my head around why this is remotely important to the bees.

yeah it's interesting. but we don't put them in the environment they evolved in, the effect of the differences could be masked by us. They evolved to be different the differences matters the Challenge is finding out why. this is part of the answer.