Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

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Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.
 
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you think you do - but as with most of what you say - all centred aroud your obsession with 'Darwinism' and precious little else.
If you think you can take Darwinism out of any understanding of natural population dynamics you are very much mistaken.
 
It funny how giving a straight answer to a straight question from you always results in an explosion of ad hominem. Its almost like you deliberately set me up just so you can be rude and dismissive. Which is why I generally don't bother.
funny - it's as if the only time you post on here is to cause acrimony and ill feeling
maybe that's why you accrued all those bans you boast about
 
my dogs never had varroa, but if they had fleas I would do what any responsible owner would do and treat them - not just sit on my backside and see if they would treat themselves
You are talking about pets, not free-living wild animals.
 
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30 years deep interest and study, a fair bit of correspondence with top experts in the field, a good university degree (meaning I know how to study and reach conclusions), but mostly a clear understanding of the key principle of Darwinism. When varroa first arrived and I was told everyone would be treating in perpetuity, that alone enabled me to know exactly what that would mean. Everything I've learned since has confirmed that. I've studied, written and talked with beekeepers on all sides for over 20 years, amounting to probably over 5000 hours. I've collected survivors (and non-survivors) and run a live and let die experiment with up to 100 hives for 12 years now. I know what the results are.

And I know whenever I read or watch experts - by which I mean scientists who have worked in the field of honeybees - speak of the connections I draw, I am always in complete agreement.

I know my s*** jenkins.
Well, without so much reference, I would say that some swarms with small bees from 2017 come from a wild population that resisted varroa. Curiously, erichalfbee has tiny black ones of uncertain origin, and even at the risk of being wrong, I would also say that they are swarms of wild origin.
With so much evidence that he puts on the table. Does the size have something to do with it or is it just a coincidence?
 
Your analogies are wrong. The one thing you don’t seem to grasp is that none of this matters.
Analogies aren't 'wrong'. They are either well made or badly made. That one was fine.

Ecologies, wild species, seeds sources, nature at large doesn't matter? Phew!

As for not managing varroa well then your bees will take over the world

What do you mean by 'your' bees? My own bees? Or free-living bees?

Yes, if they were free to do so self-sufficient bees would take over the world, just as they did before we started moving inappropriate queens and parasites about, and then to cap it all treating our bees. We broke the wild bee, and we keep it broken.
 
Well, without so much reference, I would say that some swarms with small bees from 2017 come from a wild population that resisted varroa. Curiously, erichalfbee has tiny black ones of uncertain origin, and even at the risk of being wrong, I would also say that they are swarms of wild origin.
With so much evidence that he puts on the table. Does the size have something to do with it or is it just a coincidence?
Possibly. Possibly smaller bees do better in our environment, and so the genes that code for small bees have risen to the top through natural selection. I've always only used starter strip in brood nests, my rationale being that if making smaller cells makes smaller bees (I don't know if it does) then let them choose what size cells to make. In any event, I like to let them choose their own cell sizes. I'm far from alone in that among non-treating beekeepers.
 
Which is more important, our ecology or our honey industry? At what point does damage to the former outweigh damage to the latter? Isn't that the major topic of our time?
Fair point, but it depends if by our, you mean UK or global ecology.

The UK can hardly claim to have a honey industry: only about 12% of honey consumed is produced here and the environmental cost of the other 88% (4800 miles by air, 11800 by sea from China), and production methods of the cleansed product ought to persuade us to consider ecological damage wherever it occurs, not just the results on our doorstep.

Such distant damage is beyond our influence yet the UK could affect it indirectly, by increasing home production and weaning the consumer away from the cheap. Trouble is that the UK track record - erratic weather, erratic habitat, erratic beekeepers - and a supermarket mentality is against such an ideal outcome.
 
Fair point, but it depends if by our, you mean UK or global ecology.

The UK can hardly claim to have a honey industry: only about 12% of honey consumed is produced here and the environmental cost of the other 88% (4800 miles by air, 11800 by sea from China), and production methods of the cleansed product ought to persuade us to consider ecological damage wherever it occurs, not just the results on our doorstep.
Well, anything applicable here can be applied elsewhere, and there are growing movements in many countries to try to find ways of restoring free-living bees wherever they are struggling - and reducing their struggles wherever that can be done. If beekeepers lived in harmony with wild populations, that would be great for everybody. A win-win-win-win (I'll let you recall what the four winners are)

But we can only really influence and act here. The video that started this was about Irish and UK bees and beekeepers, and so that's the stance I've adopted in this thread - what we can do, and why it would be a good idea.
Such distant damage is beyond our influence yet the UK could affect it indirectly, by increasing home production and weaning the consumer away from the cheap. Trouble is that the UK track record - erratic weather, erratic habitat, erratic beekeepers - and a supermarket mentality is against such an ideal outcome.
And yet: There are small beekeepers marketing their produce locally and making a living. And some can do it with local self sustaining bees, and without harming their local free-living bees. That could be added as a selling point.

The whole supermarket/global supply thing is not the focus, but.... the first thing to focus on might be to get trades descriptions to act against phony imported honey.

Competent outfits store enough honey to see them through lean times, and perhaps adjust prices to conserve stock. That's just standard business practice.

Increasing production: fine, though the market will only bear so much at the cost we must charge. That's just a fact of life. Cutting corners by dumping our crap into the environment in order to lower price isn't justified. Our is a niche market, and will likely remain so. We sell on quality not price. Its a sharply competitive game. - the food industry just is.

We've just seen the signing of a new global treaty on biodiversity, and the EU has acted to apply ('border') tariffs on imports from countries that are not matching the sustainability progress. We can't go on allowing supplies that are cheap because made in the face of environmental priorities to undercut our own manufacturers - who are compliant. That recognition will hopefully be applied to foodstuffs in due course.

This conversation is sprawling off topic. I suggest we stick to the topic that spawned it: the phenomena of free-living bees and the conditions that allow them, and the benefits that flow from them.
 
That’s not what I said.
What doesn’t matter is your obsession with turning the U.K. into an Amm TF zone.
It may not matter to you, but it matters to some. Like sustainability in general, like climate change, like mass extinctions - most people couldn't care less that we are taking so very from future generations. But a minority are deeply unhappy about it, and prepared to call out the wrongdoing, the injustice of it all.

btw my focus isn't on Amm - that's an interesting and I think allied project. Its on letting wild bees alone. to maintain our ecological heritage for future generations. These things are not ours to take.
 
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I generally like this blog, it's a nice place to come and share our lovely AMM pics and experiences, it's a pity it keeps getting hijacked to talk at length repeatedly about something else, just my opinion, but maybe a new thread on Darwinian beekeeping might keep that line of chat for those who like to talk for days about treatment-free, etc separate. (Off to find cover...)
 
I generally like this blog, it's a nice place to come and share our lovely AMM pics and experiences, it's a pity it keeps getting hijacked to talk at length repeatedly about something else, just my opinion, but maybe a new thread on Darwinian beekeeping might keep that line of chat for those who like to talk for days about treatment-free, etc separate. (Off to find cover...)

IIRC his earliest contribution to this one was accusing AMM enthusiasts of contributing to the extinction of 'varroa resistant' 'wild' bees
 
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IIRC his earliest contribution to this one was accusing AMM enthusiasts of contributing to the extinction of 'varroa resistant' 'wild' bees
I remember well!
 
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This conversation is sprawling off topic. I suggest we stick to the topic that spawned it: the phenomena of free-living bees and the conditions that allow them, and the benefits that flow from them.
Which is
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.
And is a very interesting blog about passionate beekeepers and their bees.
I should apologise to Swarm for encouraging you and I do unequivocally
 
I generally like this blog, it's a nice place to come and share our lovely AMM pics and experiences, it's a pity it keeps getting hijacked to talk at length repeatedly about something else, just my opinion, but maybe a new thread on Darwinian beekeeping might keep that line of chat for those who like to talk for days about treatment-free, etc separate. (Off to find cover...)
I did ask Swarm if he's prefer we took it elsewhere.

I thank, since the sceptics have decided to leap in and trample discussion, I'm probably done with it anyway.
 
I remember well!
Keeping treatment-dependent Amm bees is no different in terms of damage done to free-living bees than keeping similarly dependent any other bees.

There, I've said it again.

IMO Amm enthusiasts and treatment-free/local bee-keepers have a great deal of interesting conversation waiting in the wings.
 
Possibly. Possibly smaller bees do better in our environment, and so the genes that code for small bees have risen to the top through natural selection. I've always only used starter strip in brood nests, my rationale being that if making smaller cells makes smaller bees (I don't know if it does) then let them choose what size cells to make. In any event, I like to let them choose their own cell sizes. I'm far from alone in that among non-treating beekeepers.
It is not the same as small bees stretching a wax comb without a base that you put a base on it, stretch it and wait for small bees to come out.
 
Started with the evidence that if left alone, the bees revert to type. This can be relatively fast, within a few seasons and would indicate the bee type best suited to its environment. This bee resembles Amm in appearance and characteristics.
It has drifted off onto another path now, though and it will only detract from the subject of this blog which is sustainable beekeeping, working with our native bees.
 

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