Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[fian]

Buckfasts are very popular with commercial and hobby beeks in the UK and in recent years account for a fair number of imports. The fact that Good breeder queens are also available to anyone means that they are widely used by smaller scale breeders.
Much the same can also be said about the various Carnica groups.

Then it would take a little less than 20,000 beekeepers efficiently distributed throughout the British territory with an appreciable number of hives for several generations of buckfast queens to have a forceful influence on local wildlife.
Regarding meat, scientists have already shown that its degree of hybridization is much more minor, it is much higher in buckfast because it shares more genetics.

 

[Beesnaturally]

The fact that Good breeder queens are also available to anyone means that they are widely used by smaller scale breeders.

Is that capitalisation intended to make the proposition more persuasive?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Then it would take a little less than 20,000 beekeepers efficiently distributed throughout the British territory with an appreciable number of hives for several generations of buckfast queens to have a forceful influence on local wildlife.

Why on earth would we want to do that?

The whole idea is to act in ways supportive of local honeybee strains, not to obliterate them with treatment-dependent queens genetically unsuited to the local environment.

 

[fian]

Why on earth would we want to do that?

The whole idea is to act in ways supportive of local honeybee strains, not to obliterate them with treatment-dependent queens genetically unsuited to the local environment.

My intention was to show the contradiction of warning about the loss of local bees based on the massive importation of buckfast or carniola and not through the promotion of their characteristics.
It must give an answer to what are the reasons that lead a beekeeper to choose buckfast and not local amm.
A program to improve local amm and if for this it is necessary to resort to importing amm from France, Switzerland or other countries with amm and even the am Iberensis has a certain degree of amm.

 

[Beesnaturally]

My intention was to show the contradiction of warning about the loss of local bees based on the massive importation of buckfast or carniola and not through the promotion of their characteristics.
It must give an answer to what are the reasons that lead a beekeeper to choose buckfast and not local amm.
A program to improve local amm and if for this it is necessary to resort to importing amm from France, Switzerland or other countries with amm and even the am Iberensis has a ce

Perhaps we are speaking at cross purposes here, or perhaps you have mistakenly taken Ian123 seriously, or perhaps you too are having a joke?

Beekeepers buy 'Buckfasts' and other imported strains because they are told it's something beekeepers do, and that it's a good idea, and never told of the damage it does. In fact there is a hefty propaganda campaign against those who try to speak of even the existence, let alone the benefits of, local adapted strains. It's a money thing: tell fibs, earn a living and all that.

Have you actually watched the video?

Available from here:
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/amm-native-black-bee-discussion.52036/post-852260

 

[Erichalfbee]

In fact there is a hefty propaganda campaign against those who try to speak of even the existence, let alone the benefits of, local adapted strains.

There are campaigns on both sides to be fair.

 

[Murox]

Beekeepers buy 'Buckfasts' and other imported strains because they are told it's something beekeepers do, and that it's a good idea, and never told of the damage it does. In fact there is a hefty propaganda campaign against those who try to speak of even the existence, let alone the benefits of, local adapted strains. It's a money thing: tell fibs, earn a living and all that.

Thats a really odd comment to make. Maybe not living in little england gives me a different perspective. It seems to me that availability of authentic Amm and the lack of proper breeding (not just multiplying) might have a lot more to do with it rather than simple propaganda. Money is of course an important factor.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Thats a really odd comment to make. Maybe not living in little england gives me a different perspective. It seems to me that availability of authentic Amm and the lack of proper breeding (not just multiplying) might have a lot more to do with it rather than simple propaganda. Money is of course an important factor.

Authenticity and Amm is something we could have a discussion about. I've outlined my thoughts about black bees and free living bees a few posts above. And that might make a good starting point.

Swarm may prefer this was done elsewhere...?

Something emerging from the DNA studies outlined in the video is that slowing imports, and appreciating the existence of, and working with, local adapted strains, seems to assist the re-establishment of Amm strains.

As well as having multiple further benefits in terms of bee health and local ecologies.

In my personal opinion persuading the black bee enthusiasts to focus less on purity of Amm and more on local surviving strains, bringing their expertise to the project of protecting local landraces (my coinage there) will achieve the same goal.

Because: locally adapted free living bees are seen to be doing the same work: heading back toward Amm through natural selection for the fittest strains.

 

[fian]

Perhaps we are speaking at cross purposes here, or perhaps you have mistakenly taken Ian123 seriously, or perhaps you too are having a joke?

Beekeepers buy 'Buckfasts' and other imported strains because they are told it's something beekeepers do, and that it's a good idea, and never told of the damage it does. In fact there is a hefty propaganda campaign against those who try to speak of even the existence, let alone the benefits of, local adapted strains. It's a money thing: tell fibs, earn a living and all that.

Have you actually watched the video?

Available from here:
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/amm-native-black-bee-discussion.52036/post-852260

I have not seen the video and I have read many comments on this post and others related to it. In the end we must answer the key questions.
1. I think you said that there were no buckfast breeders in the UK. What is the reason, the
difficulty of establishing a "biological island"?
2. The import is a regulated and controlled activity, and more, after Brexit, leaving only the Ulster border as a diffuse line.
3. Beekeepers can buy queens but it is clear that there must be a motivation and the maintenance of myths "buckfast queens produce more honey than other breeds" does not contribute to improving the perception of queens amm.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I have not seen the video and I have read many comments on this post and others related to it. In the end we must answer the key questions.
1. I think you said that there were no buckfast breeders in the UK. What is the reason, the
difficulty of establishing a "biological island"?

No, I didn't say that. I think some people are pushing the idea that some 'buckfast' breeders are including VHS genes in their mix, and that that would constitute a good reason to use them. Which is, imho, horse****

3. Beekeepers can buy queens but it is clear that there must be a motivation and the maintenance of myths "buckfast queens produce more honey than other breeds" does not contribute to improving the perception of queens amm.

They may produce more honey (under managed conditions) than average local strains (usually struggling under the burden of non-resistant genes from treaded hives). I don't know. What I do know is that keeping bees that need treating sickens local free living bees - all over; and that local varroa-resistant strains offer a host of advantages both to beekeepers and to local ecologies.

In general terms the idea that bred foreign queens from anywhere might be a good plan is something that only really makes sense to sellers of queens (and nucs made with them) and commercial highly managed (and highly damaging) commercial outfits.

 

[Erichalfbee]

motivation and the maintenance of myths "buckfast queens produce more honey than other breeds" does not contribute to improving the perception of queens amm.

I keep both black bees and Buckfast. In a good year they far outperform the black ones. In a bad year the black ones will bring in something while the orange ones just mark time
Good years used to be few and far between. . They are becoming much more common. In the last ten years there have been 4 where I live so it’s not a myth for me

 

[fian]

I keep both black bees and Buckfast. In a good year they far outperform the black ones. In a bad year the black ones will bring in something while the orange ones just mark time
Good years used to be few and far between. . They are becoming much more common. In the last ten years there have been 4 where I live so it’s not a myth for me

Three questions.
1. Do you change the buckfast queens every year?
2. Do you observe crossbreeding between the two and how do you handle it?
3. Is the handling of the two breeds the same?
Regarding the measurement of production. It's a bit biased to make the comparison on top and not on breed averages over several years.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well my orange bees get darker and less productive so I requeen every three years.
Handling? Yes broadly. Demaree or nuc the queen. Vape with oxalic after harvest and around now. Top up stores for winter. Every colony gets more or less the same.

 

[fian]

Well my orange bees get darker and less productive so I requeen every three years.
Handling? Yes broadly. Demaree or nuc the queen. Vape with oxalic after harvest and around now. Top up stores for winter. Every colony gets more or less the same.

1. Does that mean that a buckfast queen "lives" three years and is replaced or that all hives with buckfast queens are changed every three years regardless of the queen?
2. Have you estimated the benefit of honey over the cost of purchasing new queens?
3. Have you noticed any improvement in the queens amm?. None of them have an additional margin for improvement over the years?
4.Have you observed any black queens with a burgundy sheen?

 

[Murox]

Authenticity and Amm is something we could have a discussion about. I've outlined my thoughts about black bees and free living bees a few posts above. And that might make a good starting point.
Swarm may prefer this was done elsewhere...?
Something emerging from the DNA studies outlined in the video is that slowing imports, and appreciating the existence of, and working with, local adapted strains, seems to assist the re-establishment of Amm strains.
As well as having multiple further benefits in terms of bee health and local ecologies.
In my personal opinion persuading the black bee enthusiasts to focus less on purity of Amm and more on local surviving strains, bringing their expertise to the project of protecting local landraces (my coinage there) will achieve the same goal.
Because: locally adapted free living bees are seen to be doing the same work: heading back toward Amm through natural selection for the fittest strains.

So do you advocate for Amm or for the clearly hybridised “local landraces”? (like the phrase by the way). The reproductive biology of bees with queens mating numerous drones makes selective bee breeding both puzzling and complex, even experts can have trouble interpreting and understanding how the selection of bees with preferred characteristics in one generation leads to improved progeny in the next.

You said "In general terms the idea that bred foreign queens from anywhere might be a good plan is something that only really makes sense to sellers of queens (and nucs made with them) and commercial highly managed (and highly damaging) commercial outfits."
Where I live getting hold of almost any stock involves importation. The Irish Amm I have imported do very well here, but then you might argue that they are 'local' since NI is less than 25 miles away. Similarly I have some Scottish stock that come from a lot further away, they also do very well in this marginal area as do the very local ( well 10 miles away) mongrels. All are pretty and black.

 

[Swarm]

Authenticity and Amm is something we could have a discussion about. I've outlined my thoughts about black bees and free living bees a few posts above. And that might make a good starting point.

Swarm may prefer this was done elsewhere...?

Something emerging from the DNA studies outlined in the video is that slowing imports, and appreciating the existence of, and working with, local adapted strains, seems to assist the re-establishment of Amm strains.

As well as having multiple further benefits in terms of bee health and local ecologies.

In my personal opinion persuading the black bee enthusiasts to focus less on purity of Amm and more on local surviving strains, bringing their expertise to the project of protecting local landraces (my coinage there) will achieve the same goal.

Because: locally adapted free living bees are seen to be doing the same work: heading back toward Amm through natural selection for the fittest strains.

Thanks for that Beesnaturally, others have said the same about reverting to type. It's pretty much what I found with my bees and the reason a number of us worked with Amm queens while running comparisons with existing stock. Result, practically identical.
My original bees were dark, local queens heading dark colonies, then some light queens appeared before reverting back over the years to dark queens and bees. These blips, with the exception of one, changed the nature of the bees. I've never had nasty colonies but these were bees that were just not enjoyable to work, alarm pheromone, jumping on your fingers and flying up from the seams.
The one who was 'nice' was kept as I'm not in the habit of killing healthy queens and sure enough, her progeny have reverted to dark. In fact, I still have a nice, golden queen and her dark sister, daughters of an Amm mother and quite different colonies.
I'm a believer in Voluntary Conservation Areas and involving beekeepers working with their own bees. Raising queens is far more rewarding in so many ways than buying them. Of course, conservation efforts often involve reintroduction and it may or may not help in reestablishment but I'm sure the end result would be pretty similar within a few seasons if no other queens are brought into that area. It could be achieved more quickly with a cull of light queens but again, I don't think that's necessary
I've had queens mated in the first week of May and others in September so maybe a lot to do with natural selection.
My bees bring in honey every year, from memory I think 2013 was the worst yet they still managed no less than two full supers. This year was incredible, I ran out of drawn comb, I ran out of supers, I added deeps and despite all the wax building I had a record crop. One colony brought in just shy of 207 lbs. I also had the quietest year ever with swarm control, two supersedures, one swarm. The one that swarmed I left as there were just two sealed cells. They landed just above nuc height on a Willow a few yards behind their hive and when inspected I harvested the other cell so she went to a friend and is now doing well.

 

[Erichalfbee]

1. Does that mean that a buckfast queen "lives" three years and is replaced or that all hives with buckfast queens are changed every three years regardless of the queen?
2. Have you estimated the benefit of honey over the cost of purchasing new queens?
3. Have you noticed any improvement in the queens amm?. None of them have an additional margin for improvement over the years?
4.Have you observed any black queens with a burgundy sheen?

1.Not a simple reply. The queens I Demaree are kept regardless of colour until their production drops off. Her colony may be demareed again the following year or more usually just AS'd. As'd colonies are usually recombined after swarming.I have 9 colonies. I generally replace two or three queens a season
2. No I am a hobby keeper.I'm not into beekeeping taking over my life. I self indulge. I have a Sublimox which cost a packet and various bits of kit which really aren't commensurate with my turnover.
3. I don't monitor. Even the Amm is replaced regularly. I usually have a swarm into a bait hive of tiny black defensive bees. They must come from the same place as they are always the same. Husband likes to play with them.
4. Yes.Not all my purchased Buckfast are orange

 

[Beesnaturally]

There are campaigns on both sides to be fair.

I'm not sure what that says? Of what sort of force? Who are the players and and how does each group campaign; what is their reach?

Its my observation that the campaigns are extremely one-sided in terms of visibility and force.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Well my orange bees get darker and less productive so I requeen every three years.
Handling? Yes broadly. Demaree or nuc the queen. Vape with oxalic after harvest and around now. Top up stores for winter. Every colony gets more or less the same.

Your orange bees are bred for high productivity. Are your darker bees so bred?
This seems to be a expensive racehorse/free pony comparison.

Those who keep whatever local bees and breed toward productivity would offer a fairer comparison.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Those who keep whatever local bees and breed toward productivity would offer a fairer comparison.

To what?
I was simply answering mr Fian’s question.